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Author Topic:   What is the mechanism that prevents microevolution to become macroevolution?
Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 39 of 301 (345034)
08-30-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by mjfloresta
08-29-2006 11:18 PM


Genetic Diversity
So, is there a reduction of genetic diversity? Not really, the sum population still possesses the full diversity of alleles among its 30,000 genes. However there has been a reduction of genetic diversity as seen in each population.
Well, yes assuming that genetic diversity can never increase or that genetic diversity increases at a rate unable to combat the constant reduction in population size. This undoubtedly happens in some cases, where excessive isolation events can cause bottlenecks which may lead to extinction.
The questions is - is this assumption valid and do we see evidence of this? When we look at the evidence do we see any species increasing in genetic diversity with new alleles entering the population?

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Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 158 of 301 (346619)
09-05-2006 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by EZscience
09-05-2006 7:01 AM


pressure
I hate to be a pedant, and I agree with your position in principle, however:
We may speak of 'selection pressure', but there is no such thing as 'mutation pressure'.
There is such a thing as mutation pressure: it is basically when a mutation happens in one direction more probably than another direction (that is, a reversable mutation occurs but it is more likely to occur in one direction than another). I explained it a little better in this post for those reading who are interested.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 199 of 301 (347081)
09-06-2006 7:05 PM


New alelles without mutation
It is possible that new alelles can form without a mutation even occurring, so Faith's concept isn't entirely wrong. I don't think it has been shown to be a major source of new alelles, for reasons that might be apparant.
From an encyclopedia article on recombination:
Recombination was once thought to occur only between genes, never within them. Indeed, the supposed indivisibility of the gene was regarded as one of its defining features, the other being that it was a single unit of function. However, examination of very large progenies shows that, in all organisms studied, nearly all functionally allelic mutations of independent origin can recombine with each other to give nonmutant products, generally at frequencies ranging from a few percent (the exceptionally high frequency found in Saccharomyces) down to 0.001% or less. Recombination within genes is most frequently nonreciprocal.
Some of that isn't germane but the first part is. To simplify it has been said that recombination is the reshuffling of genes. Given where Faith is coming from I think a little more is needed (sorry if it has been brought up already).
There is no process or marker which says 'this is a gene' in the DNA. So it is possible that during one part of meiosis (where the DNA is sliced up and recombined) that a gene will be sliced up. The shorter the gene the less likely that is. If a gene gets sliced up and paired with another sliced up gene with some other purpose, it might create an entirely novel gene.
I can't see any evidence of this actually happening, but I might be wrong. Dawkins goes to great lengths to talk about genes as a unit of selection, and one selection pressure is for genes to not be too long, or they will basically be destroyed with this method.
I'd be interested to hear from Faith and the biologists for comments on any studies or the like that have been done in this area. I believe that this kind of thing might technically known as a mutation, just as inversions and deletions are.

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 Message 201 by RickJB, posted 09-06-2006 7:28 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 202 of 301 (347091)
09-06-2006 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by RickJB
09-06-2006 7:28 PM


Re: New alelles without mutation
Isn't the mutation of an allele an example of "genetic change"?
From what I know, Faith is happy with genetic change and mutations. It is her opinion that mutations that cause genetic change lead to a decline in viability overall, and perhaps the loss of an allele. It is her opinion that these mutations may convey certain advantages under some conditions but at a cost of the populations being less viable overall.
I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

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 Message 201 by RickJB, posted 09-06-2006 7:28 PM RickJB has replied

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 205 of 301 (347116)
09-06-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by RickJB
09-06-2006 7:39 PM


Re: New alelles without mutation
is Faith now accepting that some form of "evolution", complete with some form of "speciation" and "genetic change", will be at work for as long as any viability remains?
I was not aware she ever denied that.

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