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Author Topic:   A Designer Consistent with the Physical Evidence
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 36 of 327 (500294)
02-24-2009 12:51 PM


Some evidence, some conclusions
We know that things like engines don't just spring into existence.
If we assume that this kind of argument, properly thought through and argued for, is successful and if we make no further assumptions about the character of this designer we might be able to conclude some things about it on the available evidence:
First: Engines are very simple, trivially simple, ludicrously simple, in comparison to the human body. I mean the principles of a simple engine can be understood by a teenager without too much trouble. A preteen, with the right kind of tuition, could design and build an engine and although we would be impressed - we wouldn't consider it miraculous. If anybody built something akin to a human, without relying on pre-existent developmental methods, we would be stunned.
Thus, from the evidence, the designer is always more complex than the design. The designer makes simple things in comparison to it. This is true for every single known designed object so it is very likely true of every single unknown designed object.
Second: There is some purpose behind everything that is designed be it artistic or functional. Therefore - our designer likely gets some aesthetic pleasure from what happens here on earth, or requires earthly activities for some inscrutable end.
Third: A smart human designer can take an existent design and possibly design a better version. This is usually because the original designer was constrained by budget, time, vision or knowledge (or maybe something else). Since we, as designers, can see design faults in living beings (and have so far only been able to produce patches such as 'medicine' and the like), our designer must have been under some constraints and has not been able to return to the project.
Fourth: Since the evidence would strongly suggest that we descended by modification from some universal common ancestor, the designer must have anticipated its creations would eventually discover the methods of science otherwise it wouldn't have bothered to have provided fake evidence that made it look like it was not designed by an agent to those that spend their lives in deep study of the subjects. If the designer had wanted a close look to reveal its handy work it could have done with much greater ease than designing the human body, whole eco systems, and whatever else we decide the designer might have been involved in.
So for some reason, the designer was happy that some of its designed objects would spend thousands of years inferring design, and was also happy that later, some of its designed objects would infer no design after it was able to measure and accrue very accurate evidence. I think perhaps the best conclusion from this evidence is that the designer is some form of 'trickster' being with some maddening cryptic motivations that nobody can understand.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-24-2009 3:27 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 38 of 327 (500309)
02-24-2009 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dawn Bertot
02-24-2009 3:27 PM


Re: Some evidence, some conclusions
Only a person that is void of the ability to be objective would make such a nonsensical statement.
I'm trying to be objective. I appreciate you might disagree with my assessment of the physical evidence, but I fail to see what is nonsensical about it. It seems you are unable to communicate that information since the rest of your post is just as absent anything constructive.
It demonstrates that if God were to fall of the sky on top of you, proclaim who he was and then demonstrate who he was, that only an idiot such as yourself would still stand or sit there going, uh well, uh well, I dont know.
What has God got to do with anything? We're meant to be trying to work out what kind of designer would be consistent with the physical evidence. I did so making as few prior assumptions as possible other than the argument from design actually works.
ABE: The fact you brought God into things might indicate that you might be having a problem with objectivity yourself, just A thought though.
Just A thought though. Im sure if the spoiled brat Onifre can tell people to go F...., themselves, surely I can get away with this, correct?
I'm surprised you actually noticed what Onifre said. It seems that at least occasionally you are capable of comprehending the content of someone's post. Now - if you want to talk about the content of my post by all means address it. If you would like to share with me your thoughts on what the characteristics of the designer are by appealing to the physical evidence...I'm all ears.
If you want to dismiss my post, in the science fora, with a Biblical quote, I'd rather you didn't bother. I know that you hold a different position, so simply telling me again is useless.
quote:
use not vain repetitions...they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-24-2009 3:27 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 45 of 327 (500422)
02-26-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Coyote
02-24-2009 11:41 PM


Re: To return to the topic
This was established "beyond a reasonable doubt" in a court of law (Dover).
I think that the Kitzmiller trial was a civil action (they sued for 1 cent + Legal costs), and I think that means that from a legal perspective it was only established based on a preponderance of the evidence (though I think Judge Jones would agree it was beyond any reasonable doubt).
Your point still stands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Coyote, posted 02-24-2009 11:41 PM Coyote has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 48 of 327 (500438)
02-26-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
02-26-2009 6:16 AM


My simple mind at work here, but how can there be design without a designer???
If we assume that there is a design, then it basically follows there is a designer. Whether or not that designer is intelligent is where science and ID part company. What kind of designer do you think is implied after examining the evidence? Do you just infer that there was one, and it was intelligent or does the evidence make it possible to make to more detailed (if tentative) conclusions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Peg, posted 02-26-2009 6:16 AM Peg has not replied

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