Introduction to Information

What information would that be?

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Information can be defined as a reduction in uncertainty.

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That seems reasonable enough, but still doesn't give
a direct link to the data.In your question list, your analysis of which has the most
information relies on (amongst others):- Knowing english.
- Knowing what a dog is.
- Knowing what 'shaking hands' means.
- Knowing what 'shaking hands' means wrt dogs.
- Not having been told already.There is still an interpretive act involved in the 'reduction
of uncertainty', and it is only in very well-structured examples
(like a deck of cards) where the data-information relationship
is very simple, that this uncertainty is fully measurable (even
then one has to know about cards).As soon as our knowledge of the 'system' in question is
incomplete our ability to measure the reduction in uncertainty
evaporates ... leaving it as vague a definition of information
as any other.

The chemical reactions in a cell are deterministic,
mechanistic chemistry.It is vastly complex, and the resultant emergent properties
of this chemical system is the cell ... the emergent property
of a group of particular types of cell is a multi-celled
organism.You define information as 'reduction in uncertainty', that has
nothing to do with 'selecting' or a 'template' understanding
of information.Uncertainty, in this context, seems also to imply that
a conscious being cannot predict the outcome ... how do
you mean uncertainty once you exclude a consciuosness?

Just as an off-topic curiosity -- given some other
comments you have made -- your 'holmes' ID would refer
perhaps to a certain John????

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And don't you think the main example I used, dealing with cards, involves selection? The idea was to be able to select, out of all the possiblities, the one card the original person did. And it took information to do that, and uncertainty decreased with each increase in information.

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The problem with this as an analogy to DNA is that
the 'selection' you are referring to happens at the
cell/organism level not at the protein manufacturing level.DNA is more like a game of poker ... any five (or seven) cards
constitute a valid hand, but some are 'better' than others
with respect to the environment.[This message has been edited by Peter, 12-17-2003]

As I pointed out, it's like a game of poker.Any sequence will either produce proteins or it won't.If the proteins that are produced operate together to
promote 'life' they will be propogated.The sequence (like the shuffled deck) is irrelvant, it's
the outcomes (hands) that matter.

You seem to be using more than one definition for
information.This post suggests you view the DNA as a sequence of
instructions. This is not correct as anything but an
analogy.This aspect is just chemistry. DNA reacts in certain ways
given an approriate reactive environment. It's not a set
of instructions or a template, it's a chemical plant that
pumps out proteins that then interact.You keep saying things like 'this sequence of letters contains
information'. That is NOT correct.The information is in the writer and the reader, not in the
sequence.That's if the information you are talking about is this
symbolic/semantic/instruction type view point.Elsewhere you say information is the 'reduction in uncertainty',
in which case you still have no information in DNA, since
in principle, any sequence can produce some protein, and the
next base in the sequence cannot be predicted from any previous
sequence. No reduction in uncertainty == no information.

Be as sarcastic as you like, I don't mind in the least.Can you read this:Sdfq fq kls fkblojpsflkDoes the above sequence contain information to not?

And apparently ... twice at least now ... you have
not responded to the bit the comes after that.No sequence lenght of DNA allows one to predict
the next base, so there is no reduction in uncertainty,
so there is no information.

Hmmm ... let's post the definition that I am arguing
against and say 'See!'

Sorry ... don't tend to check in over the weekend.My definition of information is:Information is that which is formed by a conscious interpretive
act from the combination of data, context, and past history.DNA is a chemical, governed by the 'laws' of physics and
chemistry. There is no decision making involved, and no
conscious interpretive act. Therefore, this type of
information cannot exist in DNA.As Holmes pointed out, this doesn't advance things much.Now perhaps you will answer the question which you have avoided
by asking me to answer the above, along with several other
points which you seem to have avoided over the last few days.

You have been (check your posts) conflating two very
different defintions of information in your analyses.As soon as you mention information in DNA as being responsible
for the construction (algorithmically) of an organism
you have stepped over into the 'semantic' connotation of
information.Shannon information, as I am sure you are aware, is only a
reference to the complexity of a sequence of characters to
be transmitted and is aimed at optimising data transmissions.I suggested, several times, that under the 'reduction of
uncertainty' definition DNA still does not contain information,
since no sequence of DNA allows one to predict the next 'character'.

Just out of curiosity ... did you guess the cypher key
or solve it some other way?

Waht do you meen, mis-speelink????

Hello, hope you had a good christmas.

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The problem appears to be that Peter is looking at a base sequence on a SINGLE DNA strand for this "predictability" property and it is missing.

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So you agree that a single DNA sequence contains no information
according to the definition that you consider most approriate?

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But T Schneider looks at a SINGLE POSITION across MULTIPLE aligned VERSIONS of a single recognition site for the primary calculation of information: once the individual position's information values are calculated, then they are summed to get the total information for the binding site.

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The information above (and on the web-page to which you posted
a link) does not suggest information in DNA.It calculates an H value for a specially aligned set of data.Without the alignment the H value is stated as 2-bits (which for
4 bases represents maximum uncertainty).The conclusion (from an information PoV) is that the information
being measured is the information on the alignment, not of the
DNA.Since the alignment is performed intelligently, for the purpose
of prediction, why should one expect anything else.Finding a pattern in DNA is expected, since all DNA effectively
developed from one or a few original sequences.