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Author Topic:   0.99999~ = 1 ?
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 211 of 237 (545408)
02-03-2010 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Jon
02-03-2010 1:09 PM


Re: Symbols are Things Too...
Jon writes:
Can you show anywhere in any of my posts mention of ASCII character representation schemes?
You appear to be doing in the very post to which I am replying, because you are still questioning the identity of 0.9999... and 1.
Those two are different names for the same number. They are identical, because they both refer to the same identity (the same number). The names (the ascii representations) are different, but the numbers referred to are identical (meaning that they are the same number).

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 Message 209 by Jon, posted 02-03-2010 1:09 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Jon, posted 02-03-2010 11:52 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 215 of 237 (545511)
02-04-2010 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Jon
02-03-2010 11:52 PM


Re: Symbols are Things Too...
Jon writes:
The miscommunication appears to be here. When I write 0.9999| and 1, and refer to them, I am not using them as representations of some number and thus indirectly speaking of the number; but when I say 0.9999| and 1 are different, I am saying so in reference to them as strings, as purely a cluster of shape and symbol.
Mathematics doesn't work if you talk about it that way. For then we cannot say things such as x = y, because as strings x and y have different shapes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Jon, posted 02-03-2010 11:52 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Jon, posted 02-04-2010 10:15 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 221 of 237 (545563)
02-04-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Jon
02-04-2010 10:15 AM


Re: Symbols are Things Too...
In mathematics, "equal" means "identical".

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 Message 220 by Jon, posted 02-04-2010 10:15 AM Jon has not replied

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 Message 227 by Rrhain, posted 02-04-2010 10:54 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 229 of 237 (545722)
02-05-2010 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Rrhain
02-04-2010 10:54 PM


equal in mathematics
Rrhain writes:
nwr writes:
quote:
In mathematics, "equal" means "identical".
Incorrect. Two things being identical is a stronger relationship than equality.
The Wikipedia entry on mathematical equality agrees with me and disagrees with you.
Incidentally, I do have a Ph.D. in mathematics.

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 Message 227 by Rrhain, posted 02-04-2010 10:54 PM Rrhain has replied

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 Message 232 by Rrhain, posted 02-05-2010 12:46 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 233 of 237 (545788)
02-05-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Rrhain
02-05-2010 12:46 AM


For those confused by Rrhain's diversion, here is the first line of the cited Wikipedia entry.
quote:
Equality, or more formally the identity relation, is the binary relation on a set X defined by .
For those who understand the notation, it is quite explicit. Roughly, it says that "x is equal to x, no matter what you take x to be in the domain of interest (numbers, for example). Moreover, that gives all possible cases of equality in the domain of interest.
Rrhain writes:
OK...did you bother to look up "identity"?
And there, Rrhain begins a big diversion.
Sure, the word "identity" has many meanings. In this case, context requires that it be the identity relation (because it is defining the equals relation). And the identity relation is just that things are identical to themselves and to nothing else.
If you don't like Wikipedia, then try a google search for equal in mathematics. Or ask your local research mathematician. And expect there to be some disagreement - you never get 100% agreement on anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Rrhain, posted 02-05-2010 12:46 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Rrhain, posted 02-05-2010 10:16 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 235 of 237 (545890)
02-05-2010 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Rrhain
02-05-2010 10:16 PM


Rrhain writes:
Let a = x and b = x.
Solve a - b as x -> infinity.
As x -> infinity, we have infinity - infinity, but this equals 0 because a and b are identical.
Let a = x and b = x2.
Solve a - b as x -> infinity.
Again, as x -> infinity, we have infinity - infinity, but this does not equal 0 because a and b, though both equal to infinity, are not identical.
Sorry, but that is gibberish. There is no number named "infinity" and there is no meaning for "infinity - infinity".
Rrhain writes:
quote:
And the identity relation is just that things are identical to themselves and to nothing else.
Incorrect. It was one of the first problems we had in Linear Algebra: Prove that A = A. For that, you have to use the identity matrix and use its properties to show that each element of the resulting matrix is the same as the original matrix. That is, A x I = B and then you show that B = A which allows you to say that A = A.
I am guessing that you misremembered something, for that sure does look garbled.
Rrhain writes:
mathworld.wolfram.com writes:
A symbol with three horizontal line segments () resembling the equals sign is used to denote both equality by definition (e.g., A B means A is defined to be equal to B) and congruence (e.g., 13 1 (mod 12) means 13 divided by 12 leaves a remainder of 1--a fact known to all readers of analog clocks).
Which hearkens back to my point: Identity is a stronger relationship than just equality.
That's a definition of congruence. I'm not sure why you would think that says anything about "equal". It sure seems a reach.
The remainder of your post does not even seem to be related to anything else in this thread. And we have drifted far from the topic of the OP. So I'll end my participation in the "equal" side issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Rrhain, posted 02-05-2010 10:16 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Rrhain, posted 02-06-2010 5:23 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 237 by Rrhain, posted 02-06-2010 6:38 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
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