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Author Topic:   Size of the universe
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 205 of 248 (678658)
11-09-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by New Cat's Eye
11-07-2012 12:23 AM


Re: lost in space
Hi Cath sci,...
....there was "some time" after the Big Bang before matter even existed:
click to enlarge
It was "really fucking short" but it was there nonetheless.
The main point is that all matter, all the heavens and the earth and everything in it appeared in a single event just as Genesis says so clearly, right?
It is clear that the Bible was right long before Science was sure that Universe DID have a beginning, 13.9 billion years ago.
Gen. 1:1 In the beginning, (the Formative/Cosmology Era), God, (the Uncaused First Cause, or the Dark Energy which pre-existed the material Universe, perhaps), created... (all that which has followed the Big Bang from the singularity of Planck Time which consisted of
Seven Stages:
1) The Inflation Era
2) The Quark Era
3) Hadron Era
4) Lepton Era
5) Nucleosynthesis Era
6) Opaque Era
7) Matter Era,...
in an enormous Einsteinian energy transformation, E = mC^2),...
... the (matter composing the) heaven (beyond the Solar System) and the (accretion disk which congealed into the planet) earth.
(Gen 1:1)
Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting
(The seven stages of the Big Bang underline the favorite number of God)
Here the whole cosmic evolution is expressed as seven stages of unfolding.
Edited by kofh2u, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-07-2012 12:23 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Rahvin, posted 11-09-2012 6:17 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 207 by Boof, posted 11-09-2012 6:54 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 11-09-2012 11:24 PM kofh2u has not replied
 Message 213 by Percy, posted 11-10-2012 8:23 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2012 11:18 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 209 of 248 (678673)
11-09-2012 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Rahvin
11-09-2012 6:17 PM


Re: lost in space
Rah,
1) You're just choosing arbitrary divisions for your mythical "days." You could just as easily divide the evolution of the Universe into 2, 3, or 10 different "days" by choosing different arbitrary divisions. In this respect, your Bible is no more or less correct than any random guess.
Not me, I'm jusr quoting the scientists who explain the stages of the ig Bang by favoring this division into seven steps.
As you say, they coiuld predominantly have choosen to think out the relationship between events and decided to break it down differently.
But what seems true is that science tends to select seven quite often, and here, the seven steps have been posted by others on other threads.
1) But if you list another scientist for us, let's examine if it is really beneficial.
2) And, since seven supports the Bible, why choose to make artifical waves???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Rahvin, posted 11-09-2012 6:17 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 210 of 248 (678675)
11-09-2012 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Rahvin
11-09-2012 6:17 PM


Re: lost in space
2) The Bible presents Creation as occurring in six days, not seven. On the 7th, "he rested," remember? You should cut down your arbitrary divisions by a day.
No... the bible is right about seven:
1. Formative/Cosmologic Era-Hadean Era/ = First Day
2. Hadean Era-Archaean Era/ = Second Day
3. Archaean Era-Proterozoic Era/ = Third Day
4. Proterozoic Era-Paleozoic Era/ = Fourth Day
5. Paleozoic Era-Mesozoic Era/ = Fifth Day
6. Mesozoic Era-Cenozoic Era/ = Six Day
7. Cenozoic Era-Common Era/ = Seventh Day

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Rahvin, posted 11-09-2012 6:17 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Rahvin, posted 11-09-2012 7:31 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 214 by Eli, posted 11-10-2012 10:17 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 216 of 248 (678818)
11-10-2012 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Boof
11-09-2012 6:54 PM


Re: lost in space
(The seven stages of the Big Bang underline the favorite number of God)
Tremble before me mortals, I am God the almighty, creator of all. I am beyond, space, time and matter! I am eternal and omnipotent!
Also I'm a virgo, my favourite number is 7 and I just LOVE the smell of burnt goat.
I know, off topic - but seriously...
The numbers 12 and 3 are pretty redundant too.
The reason is that the Jews wrote cues and noted the facts stated in the Torah at the time of Moses.
They had a system to remember the Torah so that they could speak the words orally.
This was all done by the kohanim, the priests whose hands we still see on their tombstones in the Jewish cemeteries.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 217 of 248 (678820)
11-10-2012 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Rahvin
11-09-2012 7:31 PM


Re: lost in space
No... the bible is right about seven:
Reread Genesis.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the seventh day, He rested. There was no "creating" going on in the seventh day of Genesis.
In the Bible, creation takes six days, not seven.
Your diagrams specifically show things (ie, galaxies) being created on the "seventh day." Therefore either they or the Bible must be wrong.
... the evening (of the Mesozoic Era) and the morning (of the Cenozoic Era) were the sixth "day,"...
Gen. 1:31 And God, (The First Uncaused Cause), saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the (Cretaceous) evening (of the Mesozoic Era) and the (Quaternary) morning (of the Cenozoic Era) were the sixth "day,": [yom, in the Hebrew = duration]
The creation ended on the morning of the sixth day, which was the Quaternary Period of the Cenozoic Era.
The morning of the seventh day of rest began during the Tertiary Period of the Cenozoic Era:
NOTE:
1. Formative/Cosmologic Era-Hadean Era/ = First Day
2. Hadean Era-Archaean Era/ = Second Day
3. Archaean Era-Proterozoic Era/ = Third Day
4. Proterozoic Era-Paleozoic Era/ = Fourth Day
5. Paleozoic Era-Mesozoic Era/ = Fifth Day
6. Mesozoic Era- (Quaternary Period of the) Cenozoic Era/ = Six Day
7. (Tertiary Period of the) Cenozoic Era -Common Era/ = Seventh Day

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 218 of 248 (678822)
11-10-2012 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Percy
11-10-2012 8:23 AM


Re: lost in space
Or more to the point, isn't the number of stages in anything irrelevant? Shouldn't you be looking for actual correspondences between scientifically verified events and events in the Genesis? For example, in your first diagram the 3rd stage still has no atoms, but on the 3rd day in Genesis there were already plants and trees "of every kind." Seems to me like there's no correspondence at all.
The redundant use of the number seven in both nature, (at least in regard to the use by scientists, inordinately classifying events and details that way) is matched by the Bible with such an over emphasis on that number.
It does not refer to the seven days of the creation that follow, but is merely commentariy above, in regard to Gen 1:1.
The point made above was merely illustrating that this verse refers to the seven stages of the Big Bang according to many scientists who whom seem to like seven also.
These scientists again demonstrate that creation as an overview that accommodates the numbering of seven major events, though they are not the same or kind as we read in genesis 1.
 number seven
Seven was regarded as a significant number in the ancient Near East, including ancient Israel, denoting divine completion.[32] It is embedded in the text of Genesis 1 (but not in Genesis 2) in a number of ways, besides the obvious seven-day framework: the word "God" occurs 35 times (7 ? 5) and "earth" 21 times (7 ? 3). The phrases "and it was so" and "God saw that it was good" occur 7 times each. The first sentence of Genesis 1:1, contains 7 Hebrew words, and the second sentence contains 14 words, while the verses about the seventh day (Genesis 2:1-3) contain 35 words in total.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Percy, posted 11-10-2012 8:23 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Percy, posted 11-10-2012 6:56 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 219 of 248 (678825)
11-10-2012 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Eli
11-10-2012 10:17 AM


Re: lost in space
Those are geological scales, not cosmological.
They are also categorically wrong.
There are 4 eons/10 eras, not 6 eras. You are mixing them up.
Ceno, mezo, paleo belong to the Phanerozoic eon.
The organization of rock layers uses the suffix eons, eras, periods, epochs merely to signify the age of the layer, eons implying billions of years, eras in the millions, and periods and epochs significant shorter times.
If one lists all all the eons then the eras, etc the list is long.
But one counts six durations measured by the layers which are separated by cataclysmic events which is used as the Geological Clock.
These major six layers each contain sub-layers of various ages which use prefixes that indicate whether they are in the beginning, middle, or last stages of the particular layer:
The six major chronological layers are also biologically grouped into two sets of three Eras, depending upon whether there is abundant evidence of life in the rocks or not.
Biologically, the last three rock layers contain evidence of life, hence they are classified as Phanerozoic.
The same reasoning, albeit the absence of evidence of life in the first three rock layers are classified as Precambrian (before the great Cambrian life explosion).
These tags do NOT refer to rock layers but to whether life can be found inside the rocks that appeared in the order over time.
(Note the red explanation in red ink as per Berkeley explanation).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Eli, posted 11-10-2012 10:17 AM Eli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Eli, posted 11-10-2012 7:17 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 224 of 248 (679236)
11-13-2012 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Percy
11-10-2012 6:56 PM


Re: lost in space
Okay, I think I understand now.
You think that numerology is evidence that the Bible knew about the nature of the universe before modern scientists.
But numerology is nonsense, plus the events actually described in Genesis lack any correspondence to what actually happened.
Funny man.
You have descibed what you accuse me of.
1) What I think about sets of numbers is part of Group Theory.
My hypothesis concerns the assumptions that the human mind is a pattern seeking device.
That is the acepted idea of the mind at this time in some disciplines.
I add to this generally accepted idea that the "software" the computer-like Brain (used to operate the system of the mind it creates) has a fixed and ready pattern it throws over everything it contemplates.
The mind sends the seven sensory inputs into special physical brain locations which are the Categories to which Kant referred.
Recent laboratory experiments support some of this idea.
But common sense tends to convince an open minded person that this fixed pattern exists, since time has usually been of the essence for the mind to make decisions.
Hence the mind has a pattern to the way it first collects info from the seven senses, and then dips into an immense and genetically reproduced inventory iof possible "pictures" of the immediate situation at hand.
A choose is made usually based upon the descision making from a few dominant source ofthese inputs, and a reaction is almost instantly avaiable.
In other words, what the eyes see and the nose smells in some particular case invokes, create the whole mental picture of what exists at that moment.
This is because the pattern is always seven inouts that make sense one-to-one.
Mlodinow, Leonard. Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior (Kindle Location 146). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
The unconscious mind it is a gift of evolution that is crucial to our survival as a species. Conscious thought is a great aid in designing a car or deciphering the mathematical laws of nature, but for avoiding snake bites or cars that swerve into your path or people who may mean to harm you, only the speed and efficiency of the unconscious can save you. As we’ll see, to ensure our smooth functioning in both the physical and the social world, nature has dictated that many processes of perception, memory, attention, learning, and judgment are delegated to brain structures outside conscious awareness.
2) I believe that "the events actually described in Genesis... correspond to what actually happened" but the church people do not.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Percy, posted 11-10-2012 6:56 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Percy, posted 11-13-2012 3:57 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 225 of 248 (679238)
11-13-2012 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Eli
11-10-2012 7:17 PM


Re: lost in space
According to the ICS, which you already acknowledged as an authority, there is a clear distinction that eras are a subcategory of eons.
True.
What I am talking about, though, is not the age each of these many layers, but the age of the Earth as measured by cataclysmic events marked in the layers at specific point, i.e., six places.
For instance, when using geology to discover these cataclysmic points that mark off the "days," the K-T point separated the Mesozoic layers from the Cenozoic Era.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Eli, posted 11-10-2012 7:17 PM Eli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Eli, posted 11-13-2012 9:16 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 229 of 248 (682285)
11-30-2012 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Rahvin
11-09-2012 6:17 PM


Re: lost in space
1) You're just choosing arbitrary divisions for your mythical "days." You could just as easily divide the evolution of the Universe into 2, 3, or 10 different "days" by choosing different arbitrary divisions. In this respect, your Bible is no more or less correct than any random guess.
2) The Bible presents Creation as occurring in six days, not seven. On the 7th, "he rested," remember? You should cut down your arbitrary divisions by a day.
3) The Biblical Genesis myth compresses the origin of at minimum the solar system into the first day. The rest is used to create various forms of life, which obviously precludes using the 7th day for the "formation of galaxies."
Someone said you refuted the Theistic Evolution observation that the seven "days" of creation were analogous to and might be considered scientifically supported by Geology.
If they were referring to what you say here, you are wrong.
Catastrophic geological events are what makes the divisions between these seven geological markers for a History of the Earth.
It i.s not arbitrary at all.
Just read the conditions and environments which separate the old earthly state to the next new heavens and earth to follow.
2) You are wrong.
The Bible says that the Big Bang ENDED with the "Chaotian Era" evening of the first day and the Hadean Era morning.
Everything in Genesis is consistent with the geology.
3) The first "day" described in Genesis tells us that the Earyh was void of a spherical shaped and that the spinning rocks of the accertion ring around the Sun had darkness upon the face of its disk.
(I hope this information is on topic in regard to the size of the Universe up to the formation of the Earth as a sphere on day two.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Rahvin, posted 11-09-2012 6:17 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 230 of 248 (682287)
11-30-2012 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Eli
11-13-2012 9:16 PM


Re: lost in space
Nope. What you are doing is making disproven assertions that there are 6 eras, when there are not.
Nope.
What I am doing is forcing non-Bible believers to cloud the issue with references to eras and eons.
These terms are immaterial to what I am saying.
An eon merely means that the "day" lasted foor around a billion earth years, while the suffix era means the duration was in the millions of years.
Within each the seven geological division there are sub-layers.
Some of these subdivisions within the seven major rock divisin are millions of year old, too.
But we are unconcerned with the matter of how old a rock layer might be.
We are only concerned with how we can use geology to tell us the HISTORY of the Earth.
That means what changed over time historicaly as marked and punctuated by major geological divisions such as meteoric impacts that involved mass wipe outs and fundamental changes in the environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Eli, posted 11-13-2012 9:16 PM Eli has seen this message but not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 231 of 248 (682288)
11-30-2012 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by New Cat's Eye
11-13-2012 11:18 AM


Re: lost in space
The main point is that all matter, all the heavens and the earth and everything in it appeared in a single event just as Genesis says so clearly, right?
No, not even close. But you should start a new topic, as this is in the Science Forum. Just throw one into the Coffee House and I'll reply there when I see it.
Though I disagree with your above post, it seems I am not within the bounds of the forum rules somehow here.
Please tell what I am doing wrong in that regard.
Somehow I am getting into trouble simply by responding to what people post.
Then they post back with accusation that my information is wrong.
I try to politely explain my information is correct, and defend what i posted.
But this is getting me in dutch with the administrators.
Would you please give me the first post in this thread where I broke the rules?
Help.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

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 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2012 11:18 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 232 of 248 (682289)
11-30-2012 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Percy
11-13-2012 3:57 AM


Re: lost in space
You're previous messages could be loosely interpreted as on-topic, but this one isn't even close and so I won't address its content.
If you'd like to discuss how we know how big the universe is then your participation here is very welcome, but if you continue in this way then I'm pretty sure you'll lose your permissions in this forum, too, the Big Bang and Cosmology forum. As a participant I can't moderate this thread myself, but I'm not the only moderator.
We are off topic for sure as it regards the size of the universe.
I think everyone talking to me is also off topic too.
What seems to have happened as far as i can tell is that these other people failed to ignore something in my posts which they just had to bring to our attention in the form of contradicting me.
Contradicting me seems to be the turning point.
Such contradiction is more than an invitation and just short of disparaging my post and any point I may have made.
But these people redirect the question specifically to me, then I get in trouble for answering them.
Is that not what is happening here?
I am going to go back over this thread and find the place where you people went off topic and focused on arguing a point you did not understand in my post or took opposition with.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 233 of 248 (682291)
11-30-2012 11:31 PM


OK.
My post 205 was on Topic but everyone (including Percy) responded thereafter about what I said in that post.
I merely displayed scientific charts and images of the seven stage Big Bang expansion up to the formation of the Earth, followed by the six historical divisions of the Earth's existence thereafter.
Every post thereafter was in direct response to a comment OFF TOPIC about something criticized in the diagrams and charts.
Here wss post 306, immediately following my own.
It was off topic because he did not understand the charts and the commentary in 205:
Rahvin
Message 206 of 232 (678660)
11-09-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by kofh2u
11-09-2012 6:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: lost in space
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) You're just choosing arbitrary divisions for your mythical "days." You could just as easily divide the evolution of the Universe into 2, 3, or 10 different "days" by choosing different arbitrary divisions. In this respect, your Bible is no more or less correct than any random guess.
2) The Bible presents Creation as occurring in six days, not seven. On the 7th, "he rested," remember? You should cut down your arbitrary divisions by a day.
3) The Biblical Genesis myth compresses the origin of at minimum the solar system into the first day. The rest is used to create various forms of life, which obviously precludes using the 7th day for the "formation of galaxies."

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Admin, posted 12-01-2012 8:25 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 235 of 248 (682320)
12-01-2012 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Admin
12-01-2012 8:25 AM


Re: Moderator On Duty
Ok.
Could you direct me to your last post about the size of the Universe so I can respond to you on whatever point you may have made on that issue?
I will do the work of searching back if you are angry with me.
But I am just trying to get a feel for what the point if this thread is.
I mean the size of the Universe MUST be 13.5 billion light years X 13.5 BLY X13.5 BLY unless there isevidence that light bends around some closed boundary containingthe Cosmos. (IMHO).
Where is your statement in regard to this or shall I sarch back?

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 Message 234 by Admin, posted 12-01-2012 8:25 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
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