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Author Topic:   The question of I
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 33 (583734)
09-28-2010 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
09-27-2010 5:56 PM


Awareness is Forever...
There has never been a time nor will there ever be a time when my awareness does not exist. After I die I will not be in a state of no-awareness, as there is no such thing as "after I die". So I don't even understand what death is in the context of awareness.
To believe the world continues on after your death requires a leap of faith. After all, you have no evidence to suggest that the world is capable of existing without you sensing it; when you sleep, the world does not appear to exist as it does when you're awake. The state of the world is, sensibly, dependent on your state of awareness; its existence dependent on yours.
Interestingly, to believe that you continue on after your death requires no such leap of faith, but is heavily evidenced: for as long as you have been aware, you have been aware, and there is no time you are aware of during which you were not aware.
Contrary to the notion that your awareness will end, sensible evidence points to your awareness being eternal.
Jon

"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer
"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 09-27-2010 5:56 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Omnivorous, posted 09-28-2010 6:58 PM Jon has replied
 Message 24 by caffeine, posted 09-29-2010 4:45 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 33 (583752)
09-28-2010 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Omnivorous
09-28-2010 6:58 PM


Beware of the Aware...
Did you have some particular evidence in mind for an eternal individual instance of awareness?
Have you ever been aware of your awareness ceasing?
Our awareness turns off and on, the cycle clearly having had no effect on the world.
Or perhaps this is just true of the awareness we believe others to possess. All we can say for certain is that their awareness (or whatever it might be) has had no impact on our awareness, which is, as far as we can be aware, eternal and unending.
Jon

"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer
"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Omnivorous, posted 09-28-2010 6:58 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 09-28-2010 9:37 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 33 (583792)
09-28-2010 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Omnivorous
09-28-2010 9:37 PM


Coffe or Tea?
Omni writes:
I'll take that as a no.
What evidence is more trustworthy than that which we collect for ourselves? Is there anything more powerful than seeing the proof with my own eyes? I will admit that I am unable to experience awarenesses that aren't my own, so perhaps I am limited in this regard, but then again, I'd argue that it is impossible to experience awarenesses that aren't mine to the point that the only awareness for which I have evidence - evidence even so basic as simply existing at all - is my own.
And as far as my awareness is aware there has never been a time that I am aware of that I was not aware - that I did not possess awareness. That is, I've never witnessed the non-existence of my awareness - my awareness being the only awareness for which I have evidence.
If I accept the claim of others - that they are aware and that my awareness did not always exist and will someday cease to exist while the awarenesses of others, indeed, all things considered, will go on existing without my awareness - I cannot verify the claim, but must accept the claim on trust... I must take a leap of faith. We can go even more basic than this, of course. If I accept the claim of another as having awareness, when this person ceases - and their awareness with them - then it would be evidence of the ceasing of an awareness. However, as I am unable to experience that person's awareness, I must simply trust their claim of having awareness - I must always accept their claim on faith - and so the 'evidence' for the cessation of an awareness stems ultimately from a leap of faith.
Actually, it's interesting: If we take this out to its implications, it means that to believe I will die requires a leap of faith, while believing in my eternalness is completely evidenced... as far as I'm aware.
Jon

"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer
"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 09-28-2010 9:37 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 33 (583873)
09-29-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by caffeine
09-29-2010 4:45 AM


Re: Awareness is Forever...
If you sleep for 6 hours, when you return to consciousness your observations of existence are entirely consistent with the sort of observations you would have made had you been conscious of those six hours. Clocks have changed to indicate the passage of six hours. New posts and news stories, time-stamped to the missing six hours, will have appeared on the websites you frequent. The sun will have changed its position in the sky by the amount you would have expected it to in six hours. The programmes on TV would have changed to what was scheduled to have been on six hours after you went to sleep. The clothes you left to dry would have dried as much as they would have in six hours of constantly checking them. I could go on ad infinitum, but this all adds up to fairly good evidence that the world continues to exist in much the same way when we aren't conscious of it.
It is taken on faith that these things happened as we did not experience them, and on faith that we suffered a period of "unawareness". Do you know for certain that your awareness ceased?
My point is that we can experience our awareness, but we cannot experience our unawareness; therefore, any episode of awareness will be more evidenced than an episode of unawareness, making awareness the more evidenced state. What is more, we are never aware of experiencing unawareness, but are always aware of experiencing awareness.
Thus, as far as I am aware my awareness is eternal, for whenever I could be aware of my awareness, my awareness was present, but there were no times when I could be aware of my unawareness that I was aware of not being aware.
The only thing of which one can be certain is that which one experiences for one's self.
Jon

"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer
"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by caffeine, posted 09-29-2010 4:45 AM caffeine has not replied

  
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