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Author Topic:   The Movie Paranormal Activity
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 285 (613035)
04-21-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Straggler
04-21-2011 7:44 AM


Re: Evidencing The Supernatural
And what if the supernatural claim is evidenced?
As per Message 45 or Evidencing The Supernatural (Message 46)
Without a scientific explanation for it, its not going to count as being evidenced. If its evidenced, with a scientific explanation, then its not going to count as being supernatural.
From Message 46:
quote:
Let's say a baby boy is born to a virgin. Tests are conducted. He has the same DNA as his mother. Scientists scratch their heads but cannot explain or replicate this phenomenon no matter what tests are undertaken. It seems to defy all the biology that applies to every other living thing. The boy grows up. He seems to be able to do some remarkable things. He can raise the dead and does so regularly. One sunny afternoon he transforms the water in the river Thames to fine Sauvignon Blanc and feeds the entire population of London on a pilchard and a bagel. Chris (that's his name) starts preaching love, peace and devotion to an omnipotent being that he refers to as "father".......
Now I am not saying that science should just give up on a natural explanation for the above at all. But under these circumstances it would be difficult to continue to justify the claim that there exists no positive evidence in favour of the supernatural at all wouldn't it?
If that does count, then so should the experiences of ghost-like things. Or the prophesies of Jim Jones to his followers. Those believers would have just as much positive evidence. And thus, we'd have a source outside of their imagination.
But that doesn't count as a "known" source, because it lacks scientific explanation. If the scientists were not scratching their heads and unable to explain or replicate it, but instead they had an explanation and could replicate it, then it wouldn't be called supernatural anymore. But them scratching their heads, and unable to explain it, doesn't mean that it should be called supernatural. Why not leave it as unknown? What evidence is there that it is supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Straggler, posted 04-21-2011 7:44 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 04-21-2011 11:08 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 112 by slevesque, posted 04-21-2011 3:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 285 (613043)
04-21-2011 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Straggler
04-21-2011 11:08 AM


Re: Evidencing The Supernatural
Don't conflate verified existence with scientific explanation.
Show me the important disctinction and exemplify it.
Nothing resembling ghosts has ever been demonstrated to exist.
What does "demonstrated to exist" mean?
People believing Jim Jones to have supernatural powers is not the same as him demonstrating that he did have such powers.
His prophesies were the demonstration.
People claiming that they have seen stuff is not the same as the demonstrable actuality I described. Read my example again. Then tell me where I can find Jim Jones verifiably demonstrating such abilities.
Jonestown, Guyana, 1978.
You seem to be suggesting that the demonstrable existence of an entity that exactly matches the Christian concept of a supernatural Jesus isn't evidence in favour of the actual existence of the supernatural Christian concept of Jesus.
Depends on what you mean by "demonstrate"...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 04-21-2011 11:08 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Straggler, posted 04-21-2011 12:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 285 (613057)
04-21-2011 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Straggler
04-21-2011 12:02 PM


Re: Evidencing The Supernatural
See Message 402 for my response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Straggler, posted 04-21-2011 12:02 PM Straggler has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 285 (613112)
04-21-2011 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by slevesque
04-21-2011 3:23 PM


Re: Evidencing The Supernatural
I think the first part you said here is the crux of the matter: can things be evidenced, even without having a scientific explanation ?
That depends on what you mean by "Evidenced"...
Typically, people mean that its scientifically explained. But I agree that you don't have to define it that way.
You apparently say no, but I think this is a misstep because there comes a point where you do have evidence that something happened, but still without scientific explanation.
Here, you'd have a reason to believe something happened, but not actual "evidence" that it did happen.
Now I am not talking here about observed, repeatable phenomenons. The sun rising, or the universe apparently demanding some sort of dark matter. I agree that such things are to be put into the unknown folder.
However, I think this is a qualitative difference from what we see in the movie paranormal activity: these are evidenced (let's suppose that the video is genuine, ie not a hoax) yet are one time, unrepeatable events, and so still fall outside the realm of science.
Typically, people would not count that as actual evidence then. But yes, it would be a good reason for you to accept them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by slevesque, posted 04-21-2011 3:23 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by slevesque, posted 04-21-2011 4:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 285 (613115)
04-21-2011 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by slevesque
04-21-2011 4:39 PM


Re: Evidencing The Supernatural
I do not think that evidence automatically has to be scientific evidence. I can't see why it should be so either.
In court, evidence isn't always scientific. It can be testimonial evidence, video evidence, etc. (and of course scientific evidence. through DNa testing etc.)
I don't disagree, I'm just saying that's not what people are typically talking about when they ask about evidence. Take the OP:
quote:
And would footage like that actually be objectively considered to be evidence of real paranormal activity?
Do you think they're just asking if it would hold up in court or not?
I don't see why the word evidence would imply ''scientific evidence'', while other things would simply be 'reasons'.
Sometimes people do use the word 'evidence' more loosely in the sense of it just being a reason for belief. But usually when people are discussing whether something is evidence or not, they are talking about in the scientific sense.
When I want to talk about scientific evidence, I simply say scientific evidence. And when I want to talk about testimonial evidence, I say testimonial evidence. Seems to me it makes discussions a whole lot easier.
To each his own, I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by slevesque, posted 04-21-2011 4:39 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by slevesque, posted 04-21-2011 5:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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