Jesus The false prophet

You can't argue a book if you haven't read it.You're just flailing.Good day.

I am not the one calling Jesus a false prophet and I don't even think Jesus spoke presumptuously. As I've stated, I believe that the examples Frako gave were actually fulfilled. I do think that Matthew 24:27-34 is a much more problematic scripture.I'm trying to sort through this for myself. But Jesus 'not speaking through God' is not a loophole I can accept.

That makes one of us.If you'd like to convince me or anyone else, though, you'll have to present some evidence. Sure. But you haven't given any citation in the books where Jesus makes these predictions which involve him saying 'I speak for God; that is my purpose and duty'. The commander is a known representative; where does Jesus make known his power to represent God in the books where he makes these false predictions? What is your support for this claim? Is it only by falsely trivializing the religious role of a prophet that you are able to support your claims that Jesus is ever described in terms that would make him a 'false prophet'?I'm all ready to buy your conclusions; you just have to present some support for them.Jon

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Love your enemies!

Well, I guess that becomes your problem then. This is certainly not a position based on an actual analysis of the texts in question. I don't think a reconciliation in this manner is really possible. Again, this becomes a matter of your own belief, which I do not think is based on a proper analysis of the texts in question.

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Mark 9:1 (NRSV):

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And he said to them, 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.'

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How you reconcile this with the fact that everyone to whom Jesus could have possibly spoken this is now dead while there is yet no Kingdom is quite beyond me. I cannot see anything else in Mark that would make it possible to 'interpret away' this obviously failed prediction. They're all problematic if you want to hold to the notion that Jesus was God incarnate who laid out the divine Plan for all to see.But this notion isn't supported in Mark or Matthew where Jesus makes these failed predictions.Thus, I see no difficulty in the proposition that Jesus was a prophet who didn't necessarily speak for God in everything he said.Jon

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Love your enemies!

Our little church sends thousands of dollars monthly to support a home in Kampala that is for young women who otherwise would be living in the streets. They get a home and education.I support a man who has started farming co-operative in the Sudan that has grown from a couple of used tractors into a very large farm. He has risked his life in that war torn country.How about Martin Luther KIng, Wilberforce or Mother Theresa.Look at what Nelson Mandela did in South Africa with his non-violence and with his "Truth and Reconciliation" initiative. I have never claimed that only Christians are capable of altruistic behaviour. I've said this before but I'll repeat it. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily make me kinder than my atheistic or Muslim next door neighbour, but it should make me kinder than I had been before I was a Christian.Here is a quote from Matthew 9:

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9 As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth ; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him. 10 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners ?" 12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13 "But go and learn what this means : 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' FOR I DID NOT COME TO CALL THE RIGHTEOUS, BUT SINNERS."

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I think you might reconsider your idea about what it means to be a prophet.This is from the on-line dictionary.

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1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.

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It isn't about predicting the future, and in the case that you brought up in the OP Jesus was talking about something that was starting then and would continue. He wasn’t predicting the future.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Hi frako, What is a kingdom? 1. A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign. According to this dictionary.According to that definition Jesus had a kingdom before he ever came to earth. He is the sovereign ruler of the universe. But that aside.Jesus extablished a territorial unit when He called Andrew and Peter to be fishers of men as He walked by the Sea of Galilee. A little further along he called James and John to be fishers of men. He had followers. But that aside.Jesus was accepted as King of God's people by many lay people on the day of His triumphant entry into Jerusalem. He was received as a king and accepted as such.This parade into town with the people accepting Him as king was the last straw as far as the Pharisees were concerned. They refused to accept Him as messiah and had to kill him to stop His advancement of the kingdom.Now I am glad to see you accepted your 'F' in theology. I have given many to students.Now if you are interested in learning how to understand what the texts you keep throwing around means or any other text I will present the following rules to go by. I first learned these in a journalism class in 1952 and later studied them in College in a course called Bible Analysis. A course I have taught many times.There are 2 primary rules for understanding the Bible.The first primary rule is the 5 point question rule as follows.
1. Who is speaking or writing?
2. To whom or about whom is he/she speaking or writing?
3. About what subject is he/she speaking or writing?
4. When, or about what time is he/she speaking or writing?
5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing?The second primary rule is as follows.
1. The general application of a truth or deed to every person.
2. The particular application of a truth or deed to an individual or particular group.The biggest mistakes about understanding the Bible is that many people believe everything in the Bible is spoken by God.That is far from the truth as God did speak through men and animals, but men spoke on their own, as well as the devil spoke through men and animals.The second biggest mistake is that everything in the Bible is written to all people.That is also very wrong. Much is written to the nation of Israel and Abraham's descendants. Much is written to lost mankind. Much is written to the Church Jesus established in His personal ministry.Because all these problems exist it is necessary to employ the 5 point question rule concerning any passage to understand what it is saying and to whom it is said.Now to the scripture you quoted in the OP.Mark 9:1
King James Version1. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.According to Mark Jesus was speaking to the people that had come out to meet Him along with His disciples. Mark 8:34 According to Matthew 16:24 Jesus was speaking to His disciples and he does not mention ay other people.In Mark 9:1 he quotes Jesus as speaking about the kingdom.In Matthew 16:28 Matthew quotes Jesus as saying:

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Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

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Matthew mentions nothing of power as Mark does. Remember Mark had been a slave as was speaking from that view point. Matthew was a tax collector and was speaking from a kingdom view point.So far we have:Jesus speaking, to His disciples (at least) about the kingdom (that they have been told is within them).The reason is given in Matthew 16:21 that Jesus would soon go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.The occasion was Jesus teaching concerning His impending sacrifice for the sins of the world.So now we are left with when.
According Matthew 17:1 six days passed and Jesus took Peter, James, and John on a high mountain and was there transfigured. He taught much then departed to the coasts of Judaea.
All time is not accounted for but from here Jesus goes into Jerusalem riding on the colt of an ass. Which took place on the Sabbath prior to Jesus crucifixion on Wednesday the day the lamb was prepared for the Passover meal.So Mark was speaking a few days prior to Jesus triumphant entry into Jerusalem where He was treated as royalty in His parade into town and accepted as King by some. He then cleaned out the temple of the money changers and told them they had made it a den of thieves.Now let us examine the Greek word translated kingdom.βασιλεία transliteration basileia meaning 1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rulea) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdomThe entry of Jesus and the reception as king is fulfilled in the word used whether you are willing to accept the Biblical description of His kingdom or not.Mark added power so I will address that Greek word also.δύναμις transliteration dynamis meaning, 1) strength power, abilityJesus had the ability and power to be king.Now you seem to be expecting Jesus kingdom to be what the Jews expected that He would come riding on a white horse and put all their enemies under foot and set them us as rulers of the world.Since He did not meet their expectations the establishment did not receive Him as King even though a great multitude did.Because some did not receive Jesus as King, does this cancel those that did receive Him as King?He was King of those that accepted Him, just as He is the Savior of those who receive Him.Thus His itinerary was fulfilled as it was not a prophecy just a statement of the events to happen over the following days which did in fact happen.There were those in Mark 9:1 who was there when Jesus made His entry into Jerusalem. There were those there also that was at His crucifixion and then they saw Him after His resurrection.They saw the power He had and that is the reason they were willing to follow Him even unto the death as all the apostles were killed except John. They couldn't kill him as they tried by boiling him in oil that failing they banished him to the Isle of Patmos.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi NoNukes, Why don't you start a thread on this text and we can discuss it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Matthew 16 is most certainly referring to the end times. We have to take a step back and read the context, not only of the surrounding verses in Chapter 16, but those before and after.Read Chapter 13, Jesus makes it quite clear the Kingdom of Heaven refers not to something within, but external. He also makes it clear angels will arrive during this time of calamity.40 As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.So we know for sure, the Kingdom of Heaven is something that will arrive, angels will be present.Matthew 16:17 Jesus replied, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven. 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.Again, its quite clear the Kingdom of Heaven is not something within. Its something that will arrive.21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.Jesus is speaking to his disciples. That is his audience.22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. Never, Lord! he said. This shall never happen to you!
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.Its has been suggested Matthew 16, verse 28 refers to the Transfiguration. How could it? Were angels present? Was each person rewarded for their actions? Which in Revelation, clearly lays out its to occur during the end times: Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.Also, which disciple died before the Transfiguration?To go further, Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.Jesus again clarifies what the Kingdom of Heaven is.Now, I'm going to skip Chapter 24, which obviously refers to the end times occurring during his disciples lifetime..and jump to chapter 25. Jesus once again clearly speaks of the end times, with angels.31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Frako, Frako, consider context, context, context.

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Mark 9 (American Standard Version)

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Mark 9
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.

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2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;

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3 and his garments became glistering, exceeding white, so as no fuller on earth can whiten them.

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4 And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

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5 And Peter answereth and saith to Jesus, Rabbi, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

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6 For he knew not what to answer; for they became sore afraid.

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7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.

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8 And suddenly looking round about, they saw no one any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

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9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, save when the Son of man should have risen again from the dead.

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Obviously and objectively, contextually, the quote in question was messianic, pertaining to Jesus's futuristic kingdom.Now, as to Jesus's fulfilled prophecies, consider Luke 21:23,24, pertaining to the Jews and Israel as just one empirical example:

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for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.

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24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

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When Jesus prophesied here, Jerusalem was fully occupied by Jews. For 19 plus centuries, Jerusalem was occupied predominantly by Gentiles. In the 1967 Six day War, the gentiles ran/fled out and Jews marched in again, triumphantly, all the way to the wailing wall on Mt Zion, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Fulfillment of Jesus's messianic kingdom prophecy is emerging on tract, corroborated by numerous other end time simultaneously as predicted.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Hi ERIC,What does anything in your post have to do with the message you replied too?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Frako,Why would the entire Bible be about a false prophet? From Genesis ( the first prophecy concerning the Messiah) to Revelations we see a common theme- Jesus.you really need to do better than use a few passages of Scripute to make your claim. How about some outside non-Biblical references...

So you are telling me there are 2000 year old disciples still walking around who have not yet tasted death? Edited by frako, : No reason given.

You would be a good Lawyer you know.If a man was caught red handed in murdering someone with a blood stained knife and clothes you would probably get the jury to find him innocent and at the same time get the family of the victim to pay for dry cleaning of his blood stained clothes.

The topic which you were addressing was Matthew 16:28.My entire post addressed that verse, with the surrounding verses, to show it refers to the end times, during his disciples lifetime. I gave the context.You gave these rules to disern what the context is:

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The first primary rule is the 5 point question rule as follows.
1. Who is speaking or writing?
2. To whom or about whom is he/she speaking or writing?
3. About what subject is he/she speaking or writing?
4. When, or about what time is he/she speaking or writing?
5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing?

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I addressed each within my post. Granted, its not as well organized as your post, but nonetheless, it covers each point.You even stated:

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Jesus speaking, to His disciples (at least) about the kingdom (that they have been told is within them).

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The Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew refers to an external kingdom.My entire premise for my intial post was not only addressing your post, but others as well, concering Matthew 16:28.The verse clearly shows Jesus is refering to the end times, when angels shall appear, makind will be judged and some disciples willl still be present when this occurs.Take care.

The author of Matthew is the only one that said the son of man would come in his kingdom.The other two synoptics said the kingdom of God.Since Matthew and Luke pulled from Mark, it is usually better to argue what Mark presented. It is believed to be written closer to 70 AD than the other two. The author of Mark also presented Jesus as a mortal, not divine.Now Jesus can only be considered a false prophet if he actually claimed that the message was from God and then attempted to lead his followers to other gods.I've also shown that God can change his mind even when he has sent a prophet with a message.A prediction that doesn't come about doesn't automatically mean Jesus was a false prophet.The rules of condemning false prophets and God's past behavior give legitimate support for Jesus not being a false prophet.You would need to show that Jesus claimed the message was from God or that Jesus tried to have his followers follow other gods.Edited by purpledawn, : ID