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Author | Topic: Jesus The false prophet | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
From Genesis ( the first prophecy concerning the Messiah) to Revelations we see a common theme- Jesus. Absolutely not. We see no such thing; no such thing exists; there is no Jesus in the OT. Jon Edited by Jon, : No reason given. Love your enemies!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
purpledawn writes: The other two synoptics said the kingdom of God. Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven and His Kingdom are all the same thing. Matthew used "Kingdom of Heaven" as a more respectful, (for Mattew anyway), way of saying Kingdom of God as many Jews wouldn't say the name of Yahweh.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Chuck77 writes: Frako, Why would the entire Bible be about a false prophet? From Genesis ( the first prophecy concerning the Messiah) to Revelations we see a common theme- Jesus. you really need to do better than use a few passages of Scripute to make your claim. How about some outside non-Biblical references... That's a common teaching in some Chapters of Club Christian but it doesn't stand up to examination. So far every one of the claimed references to Jesus from the Old Testament have turned out to be simply quote mining and misrepresentation.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Jon writes: Absolutely not. We see no such thing; no such thing exists; there is no Jesus in the OT. I think you're wrong in this. There is a narrative throughout the OT that Jahweh would return to redeem His people. In saying that though, there is no doubt that the pre-Jesus Jews had varying ideas of how that would look and that very few if anyone thought it would look like it did when it finally happened in Jesus. There are however some clues. One would be the "Son of Man' reference in Daniel 7:
quote: Another one that is less cryptic is in Isaiah 42.
quote: Or the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:
quote: OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
frako writes: When Jesus prophesied here, Jerusalem was fully occupied by Jews. For 19 plus centuries, Jerusalem was occupied predominantly by Gentiles. In the 1967 Six day War, the gentiles ran/fled out and Jews marched in again, triumphantly, all the way to the wailing wall on Mt Zion, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Fulfillment of Jesus's messianic kingdom prophecy is emerging on tract, corroborated by numerous other end time simultaneously as predicted. So you are telling me there are 2000 year old disciples still walking around who have not yet tasted death? Better go back and read thoughtfully. As per the text I cited, there are dead disciples who, on the Mount of Transfiguration of Jesus when he glowed etc, appearing with Moses and Elijah, saw people and phenomena relating to the coming kingdom before they died. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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frako Member (Idle past 336 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. All that talk for a lousy vision of the future, what actualy was not a vision of the future but a vision of heaven. Why couldn't he just say in one weak im gonna show you where i came from? Are you sure hi dint mean something like this would happen
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Note this time the word generation is used not just some of you. U sure he was talking about a vision a few blokes would receive.
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hERICtic Member (Idle past 4547 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
Hey PD,
quote: Why is it better? The discussion (at least when I joined in) was Matthew 16. ICANT focused on that lone verse and took the stance that it was not in error. I simply pointed out that it was. Jesus predicted the end times during his disciples lifetime. Just because Matthew "copied" from Mark does not mean he shares the exact same ideas and theology.
quote: I think we're talking about semantics here. Jesus most certainly went around predicting when the end times were to occur...and he was wrong. I understand what you're saying. I was not disputing the "defintion" of what a prophet is according to the Bible, but ICANTs stance on Matthew 16.
quote: I disagree...at least when Jesus is concerned. 1) Most Christians believe he was god himself. I would say an all knowing being who cannot predict his own end times...most certainly means he is a false prophet. 2) Since Jesus was not god though, but divine, sent by god while claiming that his message is FROM god...I would say thats also a good indictater that he is a false prophet.
quote: Well, showing Jesus claiming that his message was from god is easy, its in the gospels. As for showing Jesus trying to have his followers follow another god...well, again, semantics. Obviously the god Jesus was preaching was not the Jewish version.
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hERICtic Member (Idle past 4547 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
Buzz writes: Better go back and read thoughtfully. As per the text I cited, there are dead disciples who, on the Mount of Transfiguration of Jesus when he glowed etc, appearing with Moses and Elijah, saw people and phenomena relating to the coming kingdom before they died. I know you are addressing Franko, but can you please elaborate? Which disciples, that Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 16, died? Also, can you please also show me during the transfiguration where Jesus: 1) Sat on his throne.2) Angels arrived. 3) All nations were gathered before him. 4) People were seperated. 5) Righteous rewarded. Context Buzz, context.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Eric,
hERICtic writes: The topic which you were addressing was Matthew 16:28. The message you replied to said:
quote:Message 52 So Matthew 24:27-34 is the only text I mentioned. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Chuck77 Inactive Member |
jar writes: Chuck77 writes: Frako, Why would the entire Bible be about a false prophet? From Genesis ( the first prophecy concerning the Messiah) to Revelations we see a common theme- Jesus. you really need to do better than use a few passages of Scripute to make your claim. How about some outside non-Biblical references... That's a common teaching in some Chapters of Club Christian but it doesn't stand up to examination. So far every one of the claimed references to Jesus from the Old Testament have turned out to be simply quote mining and misrepresentation. Quote mining from the Bible? LOL. Prophecy OT - Genesis 3:15 (NIV) And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." NT - Galatians 4:4 (NIV) But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, NT - 1 John 3:8 (NIV) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Prophecy OT - Isaiah 7:14 (NIV) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. NT - Matthew 1:18-2:1 (NIV) This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us." 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem -------------------------------------------------------------------- Prophecy OT - Micah 5:1 (NIV) Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." NT - Matthew 2:1 (NIV) After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem NT - Matthew 2:6 (NIV) "'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'" ----------------------------------------------------------------- Prophecy OT - Isaiah 53:9 (NIV) He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. NT - 1 Peter 2:22 (NIV) "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." ----------------------------------------------------------- Prophecy OT - Zechariah 11:12-13 (NIV) I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. NT - Matthew 26:15 (NIV) and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Isaiah Chapter 53 is an entire Prophecy regarding Jesus. It's fulfillment is in the NT. It's to long to post here. Among MANY MANY other prophecies in the OT fulfilled in the New. Of course you know all this, and are sitting back laughing as everyone posts the ENTIRE OT and it's prophecies for you as you sit back and watch. So, enjoy it, and your welcome.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I explained why IMO it is better. It is believed to be written closer to 70 AD than the other two. The author of Mark also presented Jesus as a mortal, not divine. As for Matthew 16, ICANT didn't focus on that verse in the message you responded to. He spoke of it in Message 51. Remember, this is Bible Study, not Accuracy and Inerrancy. ICANT gave a very nice reasoning of what the authors have Jesus predicting.
quote:It is about what constitutes a false prophet, not a prophet. IMO, per Deuteronomy, Jesus doesn't qualify as a false prophet even if one feels that what he predicted didn't come to pass. As we see in the OT, God can also change his mind after he's given a prophet a message and not make it come to pass. That doesn't make one a false prophet either. So even if one does feel that the prediction was from God and it didn't come to pass, one would also need to show that God didn't change his mind.
quote:It's irrelevant what Christians believe. This is about what is written. As I said before, if one tries to argue that Jesus is God, then again he is not a false prophet; he's a god. Prophets were mortals. quote:Do the synoptics claim that all things spoken by Jesus were a direct message from God? The message in Matthew is different than Mark and Luke.
Matthew 16:28 ...till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 12:28 implies the kingdom isn't strictly a physical kingdom.
quote:Show me that Jesus claimed that the prediction he spoke was from God.
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Chuck77 Inactive Member
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OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD How in the WORLD is this comment OFF topic? It's BIBLE study! Are you kidding me? Someone (jar) claimed that nothing in the Old Testement refered to Jesus and all I did was simply point out prophecies in the OT that referenced him. Which IS what was being discussed. How is this off topic again? The Admin seems a little touchy on these forums. This isn't an open debate, it's debate that HAS to line up with whatever the moderators see fit. It's sorta kinda like communism, you know like China. This forum is of American founders right? If not I apologise and get it now. If it IS an open forum for people to respond to other people WHICH is what I was doing what's the problem? Someone made a claim that the Bible did not talk about Jesus in the OT and I showed that person he was wrong. THAT'S debating. And I backed it up with the BIBLE. How sad to see this. This is a joke. Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
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frako Member (Idle past 336 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
I think because there is already a thread discussing those prophecies about Jesus.
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hERICtic Member (Idle past 4547 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
Hi ICANT.
Yes, in message 52 you only addressed Matthew 24. In your previous message, which you only posted minutes earlier, you focused on Matthew 16. I responded to message 52, instead of message 51 and addressed the issue of Matthew 16. Are you really going to suggest you didnt know what I was post I was refering to when you laid out an entire well thought out post on Matthew 16 and my reponse was to Matthew 16? Did you really need two posts to bring to light I replied to the wrong post and not address the issue I presented? Sheesh..... If it was that confusing, I apologize. I'll try to be more careful in the future. In refering to post 51, Matthew 16 refers to the end times, which were to occur during the lifetime of his disciples. You disagree. You also mentioned the kingdom of heaven mentioned in Matthew 16 was internal. I disagree. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
ICANT writes: Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes: I do think that Matthew 24:27-34 is a much more problematic scripture. Why don't you start a thread on this text and we can discuss it. God Bless, Since frako has asked about it, I think it can be discussed here. I don't have a well formed opinion on the matter, so I am uncomfortable starting a thread. I think there are existing threads that could be used.
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