Jesus The false prophet

Some of us are interested in the meaning of the verses regardless of whether they support frako's conclusion. Even among the people who insist that Jesus is not a false prophet, there are diverse explanations for that conclusion.Why not just end your own participation without arguing that everyone else should?

Good morning GDR.Actually, you may read this much later, so ignore that! How about, hello again! I think you're missing the bigger picture on what Jesus is trying to convey in Chapter 25.31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.Do you agree Jesus is speaking of his return and the judgement of mankind?After all, he speaks of coming with angels, sitting on his throne, seperating mankind and sending those worthy to eternal life and those who are not to eternal punishment.Luke 21 also makes it quite clear, by coming in his glory, it refers to his return.27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.This is obviously not just refering to those "attributes", but an arrival.

Apocalyptic literature is very symbolic as is Prophetic language. Prophetic Symbols And Apocalyptic LanguageWe need to get away from a planetary view of judgment. Understand what the author's audience was hearing and experiencing.After the destruction of the temple the Christians were separated from Judaism and became predominantly Gentile.These aren't historical documents. They are creative writings with a message for their audience. To attempt at understanding the message we have to understand the message in its time and the methods of the time used to present the message.It takes a lot more work to understand or trying to understand symbolic language. Since so much time has lapsed, it's hard to say if we understand the symbols correctly.There really isn't enough information to say without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was a false prophet.

Hi Eric Yes. I would add though that what His return will look like is an unknown. The whole thing about returning on a cloud etc is once again Jewish apocalyptic writing. A recent front page headline in Scientific American was this: "Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter - An Entire Universe May be Woven Silently With Our Own". The writer obviously had something different that this in mind, but that is how I see Heaven - God's dimension or universe which is where Jesus reigns from. It is all around us but unperceived.So in that sense Jesus has never actually left. However the Bible talks about the "New Heavens and New Earth". Paul writes this in his letter to the Ephesians:

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9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

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If you like it is also talked about in Isaiah 65 & 66 as well as Revelation 21. We will have resurrected bodies living in a recreated Heaven and Earth, and where I'm going to all the lectures to finally get my head around all of this. The idea of coming on clouds etc is once again Jewish writing which refers back to Daniel 7 for its inspiration. Who knows what it will look like, whether there will be some cataclysmic event or just a silent recreation of all things. Beats me, and although it's of interest it doesn't really matter anyway. None of us have any control over it. All we can control is our own lives so I don't see a lot of point in getting to wound up about it.I have to run but I’ll get back to your second question later.Cheers

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Once again it is my contention that this isn't about what happens at the end of time but about Jesus' political message and what will happen if they don't turn from their violent revolutionary ways.Let's look at the verse that you quoted in context with your verse being the last one.

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20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

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We can see that he is referring to earthly armies. There would also be no point in fleeing to the mountains if time was coming to an end, but there would be if you were trying to escape Roman soldiers.Again let's go back to Daniel 7 to which Jesus was referring.

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13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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This then is referring to the kingdom that we talked about in this thread. Jesus was establishing His kingdom here on Earth, a kingdom that He intends to be characterized by its love, peace, truth, forgiveness, mercy, kindness etc.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

The messianic Jews were still expecting the coming of the Messiah; for early Christians this meant Jesus returning to fulfill the messianic expectations of his followers.Part of these expectations involved wars, revolts, violence, etc. When the first revolt began, many messianic Jews saw the fighting as the beginning of the end of the ages; naturally, they felt that the Messiah would be coming very soon to tip the scales of the war.The Christian Messiah, Jesus, wasn't showing up, leading some early Christians to wonder whether they had actually been following the right movement: "Where's Jesus? He's supposed to be here! He ain't here! We got duped!" Mark was written during or shortly after this revolt (average date given is 70 a.d.), and is partly concerned with dispelling the notion that Jesus is supposed to be coming during the revolt. Mark argues that the revolt must happen before Jesus returns; he argues that Christians have misunderstood the signs, and are expecting Jesus' return before it is supposed to happen. In other words, Mark is saying: "Don't disband, yet; wait just a little longer. Jesus will be here!"Mark writes with the premise that you only have to hold your audience till the next chapter.Jon

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Love your enemies!

I have debated quite a few Christians regarding the "second coming". Not one has ever stated that the "stars" and "heavens" are symbolic for the leaders and high priests. Interesting. Makes sense.But again, we are dealing with the time frame. The question regarding Matthew 24 is "when". Does it just say his disciples will face tribulation or does it go further and predict when Jesus will return?29 Immediately after the distress of those days‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.Jesus clearly states his return would be during his disciples lifetime. How can you not read that this is refering to his return?42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.Jesus, is telling his disciples that there will be signs before his return. He goes on to list those signs, then tells them to keep watch for his return. He tells them to keep watch for when HE will come.Remember, there werent any chapters originally. Chapter 25 is still Jesus talking about the same events. He clearly lays out what is going to happen when he returns. Judgement of mankind. Sitting on his throne, angels appearing, seperating those who will be saved from those who will not.This goes beyond just the Jews being scattered.Read Matthew 16, he states some are standing there who shall still be alive, as the angels come and mankind is rewarded.Chapter 13, Jesus again talks about seperating those saved and those who are not, Jesus coming into his kindgom with angels.You mention that it refers to a world in exile, which very well be. That the Jews were going to be scattered by the Romans. All this may be true, but this was the start of the end.Jesus just did not predict that riling up the Romans would create chaos and that the temple would fall, he stated these were the first signs of his return.

I understand that position but I don't buy it. The earliest Christians, (although they didn't call themselves that), were those who had been his followers and had experienced the resurrected Jesus. They understood His anti-revolutionary stand. They had all given up on the movement at the crucifixion and had kept their head down so they wouldn't be the next one on a cross. Then something happened to change all that and the best explanation IMHO that what happened is what they say happened.There were many messianic movements that ended in executions. After the execution their followers just went looking for another messiah. Why wouldn't this one have ended the same way as all of the others if it wasn't for the resurrection? If they were ever going to expect something like an executed messiah coming back from the dead to lead them into battle it would have been after the execution of the Maccabees in 63 BC, or even after the execution of Simon bar Kohkba in 135 AD. These leaders did actually lead revolutionary movements. Do you really think that 30 years later they would be still waiting for Jesus to come back and lead a rebellion? It doesn't make any sense IMHO.Edited by GDR, : grammar

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Hi EricI think I answered this question already in post 85 of this thread. Please re-read that and I'll try to go a little further.The OT passage that Jesus was referring to in your quote is from Daniel 7.

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13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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Part of the problem is in translation of the word coming, but that aside we can see that the passage is talking about Jesus coming to the Father or as Daniel calls Him "The Ancient of Days".Once again, as I said in post 85, Jesus essentially is making 3 claims. He claims that He is God's anointed one - the Messiah. He makes the claim that as a result their rebellious, militaristic actions that the Temple will be destroyed and thirdly He claims that His message will go out to the world. Here He is putting a time on these things happening when he says it will happen before this generation passes away. (He cut it a little fine as it did take about forty years.)The resurrection and ascension establish Jesus as the Messiah, the temple is destroyed and the message does go out to the world, and Jesus has come to the Father.Jesus was always teaching based on the Hebrew Scriptures. He was constantly referencing them and His listeners would understand what He meant through their own knowledge of those scriptures. To understand Jesus we have to take it in that context.Let's go back to the Jewish pattern of exile The Jews believed that they were still in exile in their own land. They believed that they would be vindicated when Yahweh returned to empower them to defeat their enemies, rebuild the temple and establish Yahweh as King, probably as represented by His Anointed One - the Messiah. This would mean that God had vindicated them and the exile would be over.Jesus is saying essentially the same thing except that it doesn't look like they envision it. Jesus is saying that when those three claims have been met that Jesus, the representative Jew, will have been vindicated, and the exile will be over. The battle wasn't against flesh and blood, but the battle was against evil itself and Jesus defeated the ultimate evil which is death, by His own death and resurrection. His Jewish audience would have heard this in the context of the turbulent times they lived in. They would understand Him to be referring to physical destruction by Roman forces. That isn't to say though that we can't understand it as a message for us that we should live of life that is always ready for our own death or for the return of Christ at the end of time. This is a long sermon. It has to be read chronologically. He has moved on from the near future, which is the destruction of the Temple and the establishment of His Kingdom, through the challenge to the people of His kingdom and to the final judgement at the end of time in Matthew 25. The explanation for Matthew 24 also applies here. They weren't signs of His return, they were signs that He had been vindicated.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Hey GDR,The problem I am having with your explanation is not the part about the exile, but the part about the judgement. Using Daniel IMO, does not help your case. Yes, I can see where Jesus refers back to Daniel, I can see how it applies to the Romans, but it goes futher than that. Jesus clearly, as you pointed out is refering to the Romans and the Jews being scattered, but he also states that those events will coincide with his return.Lets just start with this verse:Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.Does this have to do with just the Romans and the exile or mankinds final judgement.?Jesus also mentions angels a few times, are these symbolic or actual angels?Thanks.

What anti-revolutionary stand?

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Acts 1:6—11 (NRSV):

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So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?' He replied, 'It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.' When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. While he was going and they were gazing up towards heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. They said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up towards heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'

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Even to the time of his supposed 'ascension', Jesus' followers still expected him to whoop some Roman ass. And the men in white reassure them that he'll be coming back. You cannot make a case for the resurrection by these means. An actual resurrection is, by its nature, the least likely of any of the possible explanations for why the disciples claimed Jesus had been resurrected. It is thus useless as an historical explanation. Yes. Just look at Paul. Also, here is something of mine from a different thread:

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Jon in Message 12 in Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable?:

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It is apparent that there can be much debated on the topic of whether or not Jesus' messageand indeed, his entire beliefwas apocalyptic. Excerpts from the earlier writings contained in the New Testament seem to indicate that he felt the end to be near:

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Mark 9:1 (NRSV):

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And he said to them 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.'

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Mark 13:24—31 (NRSV):

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'But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see "the Son of Man coming in clouds" with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

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'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

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And even the early followers apparently felt likewise:

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I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):

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Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

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Yet, similar ideas expressed in later writings soften, or omit these references to the coming end, and occasionally contradict them:

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Matt. 16:28 (NRSV):

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Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

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I Thes. 4:15—5:11 (NRSV):

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For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

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Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, 'There is peace and security', then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labour pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober; for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

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Matt. 24:4—34 (NRSV):

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Jesus answered them, 'Beware that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, "I am the Messiah!" and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.

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'Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.

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'So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; someone on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; someone in the field must not turn back to get a coat. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Look! Here is the Messiah!" or "There he is!"do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, "Look! He is in the wilderness", do not go out. If they say, "Look! He is in the inner rooms", do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

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'Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

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II Peter 3:4—10 (NRSV):

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and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!' They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.

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But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.

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Given this, it seems in the earliest days Christianity was an apocalyptic cult: the founder preached it; the followers believed it. It was only later, when the end began to appear more distant than first thought, that the religion ditched the apocalyptic message. We can see this in the gradual softening of the language used to reference the 'Second Coming'. In Mark, Jesus specifically states that his own disciples will not die before 'the Kingdom of God has come with power'; in Matthew, the references are softened. In one instance, the same passage from Mark is re-rendered to only state that the 'Son of Man' will come 'in his kingdom'. Jesus' mere presence fulfills this, as there is no longer any reference to the coming power of the Kingdom of God. Where the passages from Mark do not present as much trouble for Matthew, he leaves them unchanged; for example, it is much less specific to say that a generation will not pass away rather than to say that no members of a particular group of people will die.

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Paul expresses his belief that the end is near when he describes an 'impending crisis', and states that the 'present form of this world is passing away'. But even this seems shadowed in the reality of the daythat many Christians were dying before the promised return of Christ, as evidenced in, for example, I Thessalonians 4:13—18. As time marches, we see the situation worsen. Folk are no longer simply worried that the dead Christians will not get to see the kingdom, but are worried that the kingdom won't even come: II Peter 3:4. The only reassurance the author can give is to tell his audience that it could be thousands of years... talk about patience!

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All of this seems mismatched and shaky if we don't assume an apocalyptic origin to Christianity; the easiest way to fit everything together is to assume there was an initial feeling by Jesus (or so it is reported) and his followers of the imminence of the end. This belief was later abandoned; the beliefs of Jesus associated with it were softened, altered, reinterpreted (e.g., Luke) or left out in further accounts of his life; and later church teachings adjusted, when it became all too apparent that the Kingdom wasn't going to come any time soon.

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The Jesus movement, like all of the messianic movements, was apocalyptic. If the folk didn't expect an apocalypse, why would they crown someone their messiah?Jon

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Love your enemies!

Hello Eric My view is that this is about what will happen when time as we know it comes to an end. However this is the end of the sermon and is not talking about the same thing as Chap 24. Angels are mentioned in various contexts. In Matthew 25 He is obviously talking about angels as being life in Heaven's universe or dimension. In other contexts, and I'm not clear in my own mind, but if as I believe Heaven is God's universe that is unperceived but interwoven with our own, then I suppose that it is possible for beings to pass through the veil. In a sense that is what Jesus did for the resurrection. To be honest I haven’t thought much about angels. It’s a good question and I wish I had a better answer.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This was Jesus' whole political message. Just read through Matthew 5 and the "Sermon on the Mount".Blessed are the gentle, the merciful, the peacemakers not to mention blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness.He taught that we are to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. Roman soldiers could force the Jews to carry their pack for a mile and then they would have to carry it themselves or find someone else. Jesus said to go an extra mile. The idea was to influence others including the Romans with the qualities that Jesus espoused. I'll requote the verses you quoted from Acts.

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So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?' He replied, 'It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.' When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. While he was going and they were gazing up towards heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. They said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up towards heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'

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I agree that the disciples always had a tough time getting their head around the idea that there wasn't a revolutionary agenda in the way that they imagined it, and I agree with your take on what they were asking. However Jesus says that it isn't just about Israel. He says that it is to start with Jerusalem, into Judea, on to the semi foreign area of Samaria and to the ends of the earth. He also says that they are to be witnesses - not conquerors.He then goes on to say that He will provide additional guidance through the Holy Spirit. This is the last mention of Jesus' followers wanting to get rid of the Romans. They just went about their business preaching a resurrected Jesus and caring for the poor. This is all by the same author, (Luke) who wrote down the disciples question in the quote. That is only true if you start off on the premise that the resurrection couldn't possibly have happened. If however one believes that there is a creative intelligence that has given us life then we can conclude that this creative intelligence could intervene in one way or another in what has been created. This then makes the idea of the resurrection a reasonable possibility.I have read and listened to several debates on this and in my view if the resurrection is considered as a possibility then the resurrection makes much better sense historically than all other explanations. I don't want to get into a debate on that here because it is off topic and there are better threads for it. I would suggest reading the debates between N T Wright and both Marcus Borg and Dom Crossan. I believe that He did speak about what would happen when time comes to an end, (Matthew 25), but frankly I don't think He saw that as being of primary importance. Most of His message was political and had to do with His anti-revolutionary message. He did talk about what God the Father was doing through Him, and He did talk a great deal about what God wanted of His people. As I understand His thinking, it would be that if people believed in and followed His message of humble kindness and love then things at the end of time would take care of themselves. As an aside, I think this is where so much of the evangelical church goes off the rails. It seems to me that it is so often preached that we should believe and trust in Christ’s message so that we will be in good with Him after this life is over. The point is that we should be on His good side because we believed and trusted his message of loving our neighbour for its own sake, regardless of what comes next. This is where I think the altruistic atheist is more on track than many who call themselves Christian. (They should read Matthew 7 20-23 and think about it)I already have had a long discussion on Matthew 24, (same as quotes from Mark), with hERICtic. Rather than go through it all again maybe you could read through my other posts. Post 85 would be one place to start. I see it differently. I don't see Jesus message as being apocalyptic in the sense that it would mean the end of the world. I see it as being apocalyptic in the sense that it would be the end of life as they knew it at the hands of the Romans. I also see the Kingdom as having been established at either the time of the resurrection or at Pentecost depending on how you want to look at it. It was a Kingdom that in a sense that is meant to be a prelude, or a pointer to the time when heaven and earth are re-created and Christ’s love, justice and peace etc will be the norm. (Isaiah 66,67 Eph 1 Rev 21 for example)You quoted the following from Matthew:

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'Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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As I said to hERICtic this refers back to Daniel 7:13 and in this passage we can see clearly that in this instance it isn't about Christ coming back to Earth, but about Christ coming to the Father. It isn't being told from an earthly perspective but a heavenly one. It is about vindication and celebration.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

No; it isn't. We can conclude that an actual resurrection is less likely on the basis of knowing that there are loads of other explanations for the matter that are more likely. We have no evidence of resurrection; we have plenty of evidence of people 'seeing ghosts'. We have no evidence of resurrection; we have plenty of evidence of people making things up. And so the list goes on. Almost every other explanation we can think of is more probable than the explanation that there was an actual resurrection.This is why we do not conclude that there was a resurrection; not because we've discounted the notion without consideration, but because we have considered it and found it lacking. No; it doesn't. It is the least probable of all the explanations, and I'd even say it is less explanatory than many of them as well. I'm still working my way through the Wright link you gave me in the other thread; it takes time to get through those things. Even in that sense it was a failed prediction; the Romans squashed the Jewish rebels like bugs and spent many a generation ruling Judea.It was only technically the end of life under the Romans 'as they knew it'; instead being the beginning of an even more severe Roman presence.Reply to Message 105: That's apocalyptic. This is certainly in line with the message as interpreted by Luke. But is this the same way the message is presented in the other gospels?JonEdited by Jon, : add further reply

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Love your enemies!

Sorry JonI missed this question The other messianic movements were revolutionary not apocalyptic. They were about establishing God's kingdom with themselves at its head as God's annointed representive, geographically located in Israel with the longer term goal of rebuilding the temple.Jesus claimed that this was true but they had the wrong model. The Kingdom was for the world. The temple was no longer a place of bricks and stones but was in the hearts of His image bearing followers.Jesus represented a very differant Messiah, as you pointed out, than what the people had expected. The crusfixion caused everyone to believe that His message was not of God, that He wasn't the annointed one but His resurrection changed all that. He had been vindicated and as a result many came to the conclusion that He was the Messiah.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.