Jesus The false prophet

What explanation in your view is most likely?What evidence is there of people making things up?We do have written accounts of people who believed that the bodily resurection of Jesus was an historical event. What explanation do you have for the fact that people committed their lives to this movement and that it grew rapidly so rapidly? That is my point. That is what makes His prediction accurate. He predicted that if they carried on with their revolutionary ways the Romans would do what they always did, as you put it so well - squashed them like bugs. Yes. If the Jews wanted forgiveness they would go the temple, present their sacrifice and all would be well. Jesus was going around offering forgiveness and saying things like I desire mercy not sacrifice. In the end He told His followers that they were to go and do likewise and that they too could forgive sin. Even in the Lord's prayer we are told that we will be forgiven as we forgive.

Again, 'people who believed' it is a more likely explanation than saying that it actually happened. Star Trek. Well, that is part of what I was working on in the other thread. The movement, unlike other failed messianic movements, did not stay broken for long. I don't think that the resurrection was fabricated from thin air, though I do acknowledge that from-thin-air fabrication is a more likely explanation than saying that there was an actual resurrection. Where did he predict this? I don't see him warning anyone against fighting in order to avoid the counter wrath of Rome. It seems you've combined traditions from a couple of different gospels, here. Would you mind separating them out and showing how each gospel writer explained the idea that the 'temple was no longer a place of bricks and stones but was in the hearts of His image bearing followers'?Jon

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Love your enemies!

Fair enough but then we have to come to our own conclusions about whether we believe their beliefs were founded on reality.You made the following claim: I asked: and the best you can come up with is - wait for it now He was making the claim that He was the Messiah, and even though a Messiah was expected to lead them against their enemies in battle, establish Jewish rule in Israel and rebuild the temple, He went on preaching His message of peace, love and forgiveness.He said that "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword".At the same time He predicted the destruction of the Temple and extraordinary persecution for the Jewish people.From Matthew 24:

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1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

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This is from Luke 20 where it is most clear:

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41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you.

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As I pointed out earlier sins could only be forgiven by going to the Temple and making sacrifice. Jesus is telling people that He has the authority to forgive sin and towards the end He commissions His followers by saying that they have the power to forgive sin.This is the obvious one from Matthew 6:

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9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. ' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

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From John 20:

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19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

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It is also mentioned several times throughout the Gospel that Jesus claimed that He could rebuild the Temple in 3 days which is an obvious reference to his death and resurrection. He was even chided for it on the cross.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Well, that gave me a laugh. However, 'Star Trek' was meant to be a reply only to your request for evidence of people making things up.We have loads of evidence of people making things up, from journeys through the final frontier to magical creatures living out their days in some goofy placed called 'Middle Earth'.We have no evidence of anyone ever coming back from the dead.That makes an actual resurrection less likely than pretty much any other explanation, including the explanation that it was all made up. Isn't this prayer proof enough of the apocalyptic attitude of Jesus? If he taught his disciples to pray for the kingdom to come, what else can we think of him but that he was encouraging them to get ready for the end?Jon

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Love your enemies!

But they were written from a fictional point of view. The Gospel stories were written be people who believed that what they were writing actually happened. Of course. The Christian belief is that this has only happened once. That's the whole point. I'm not saying that Jesus didn't have an eschatological side to His teaching. Matthew 25 is probably the best example. (The sheep and the goats.) When we pray for His Kingdom to come it is not a prayer asking for God to bring the curtain down on our space time universe. It is a prayer that His mercy, justice, love, forgiveness etc would prevail on earth as it does in heaven, both now and forever.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Hey GDR.Hopefully, you have some time for me-you're pretty busy with Jon right now.Anway, I think you're tapdancing around the context.hERICtic writes:
Does this have to do with just the Romans and the exile or mankinds final judgement.? You admit that the ending of Chapter 25 does refer to the return of Jesus.Yet when Jesus builds up to this point in Chapter 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.You say: You're changing the context. So Chapter 25, all the way until the very end of 25 is all about the exile, then Jesus just happens to throw in the end of time also?Chapter 24, the question is asked "when" is the end of the age. Yes, it starts with the Romans, but Jesus makes it clear by the end of Chapter 25, it ends with his return.Let me ask you a few questions.When will Jesus sit on his throne?
When the Jews are scattered or when he returns?
Do you thinkthe reference to angels arriving makes more sense when the Jews are being scattered or when Jesus returns?
When the Jews are scattered, will all the nations be gathered before him?
When the Jews are scattered, why is he seperating all the people before him?These verses make more sense to state that Jesus is refering to his return.What makes you think "coming on a cloud" is symbolism?Matthew 26:64
You have said so, Jesus replied. But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.Matthew clearly believes Jesus will be coming on a cloud.I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.Does this match up with Matthew 25? Jesus coming on a cloud, angels?Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.Do you believe this is symbolism?Take care. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

You're still missing my point. I am not accusing anyone of making anything up; nor am I flat-out denying the resurrection (though, on a personal side note, I am rather convinced it never happened). What I am saying is that there are many things more probable than a resurrection that could explain the accounts of a resurrected Jesus.Historians work with probabilities. So the least probable explanations never stand a chance. In the New Testament there are many accounts of others being brought back from the dead; same with the Old. If it is the Christian belief that this only happened once, then Christians need to reexamine their holy books. Well of course not. The hope is that God open the curtain and reveal (apocalypse) Himself and His divine plan. That covers the 'will' part; but what about the 'kingdom' part?Jon

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Love your enemies!

Hi Eric. You replied to my post 102 but I can't find the line about the exile that you quoted. I don't think we actually disagree here. Verse 31 is about the time when our space/time universe comes to an end. Vs 31 is the set up for all of Chap 25. I do also see it as the end of the exile in the sense that we have been exiled in a world of that still has evil, sorrow and death, but then all creation will be free of that. We have to be careful here because this is symbolic language. The issue of the Jews being scattered is part of the first Covenant. Of course He still loves the Jews as He loves all of creation but while the first covenant was about Israel the new covenant is about and for the world.Essentially I would say that He is there now and has been there since the ascension. This was one of the difficulties that early Christians had. They were going around saying that Jesus is King, which meant of course that Caesar wasn't which made them very unpopular in some circles. Right now of course not everyone recognizes Him as King but by the time chap 25 rolls around everyone will.I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on angels. Matthew is quoting Jesus and Jesus is again referring back to Daniel 7.

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13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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The cloud business is again Jewish apocalyptic writing and Jesus is coming to the Father. It isn't about Him coming to Earth. It is being told from a heavenly perspective, not an earthly one. The High Priest understands what Jesus is saying which is why He accuses Him of blasphemy. I believe that yes, Paul is talking about the end of time as well.Your quote comes at the end of section where Paul is encouraging them to live holy lives. He then tells them not to worry about those who have died and will die in the future ahead of Christ's return. He the employs some OT imagery, (again Daniel 7) in doing his best to paint an image of what happens at the end of time. Nobody knows how that will look so he uses colourful language in his attempt to bring reassurance and comfort. I want to use your quote in context. Rev 1: 4-7

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4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. 7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

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Here John is greeting the churches first from himself and then from Jesus. He says in order this about Jesus.
1/ That Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead
2/ That he rules over all the earth
3/ That He loves us
4/ That through His blood and death he inaugurated His kingdom and called us to be priests in that kingdom.This section is not about the end of time but how things are at the time John wrote this, IMHO.Good questions.
Thanks

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Maybe, but I don't see any other explanation that can begin to account for the birth and spread of the church. Our doctors bring people back from the dead all the time but that is resuscitation not resurrection. Those such as Lazarus were resuscitated but went on to die later. Resurrection is about being recreated in bodily form with a new mode of physicality that is eternal. As Paul says, the resurrected Jesus is the first born of the new creation. The kingdom is again the "Kingdom of God" that Jesus inaugurated through His life, death and resurrection, the characteristics of which are love, mercy, justice, joy, forgiveness, truth etc.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

GDR isn't tap dancing around the context. The Bible isn't a historical document. There are many styles of writing and apocalyptic language is very symbolic.This is a Bible Study forum, not accuracy and inerrancy.
Understand what was going on when these gospels were written and what their audiences would have understood. Jewish-Roman WarsAlso do a little research on apocalyptic language instead of doubting GDR. Prophecies are creative in their presentation. I provided links earlier to help. Message 93Clouds seem to imply spiritual presence or power more than physical appearance. The author of Matthew relied heavily on the OT and wrote after 70 CE. He already knew what had happened and used the language of the OT to describe it.Really to support your position you would need to show evidence that it wasn't written in apocalyptic language.According to the gospels Jesus was guilty of sedition or blasphemy for claiming to be the king of the Jews.

Hi PD. I never stated there arent many styles and writings, nor did I suggest it is not symbolic. I do have an issue that the terminology "coming on clouds" is symbolic though. I see no evidence to sway me on this issue. In fact, it appears very clear that "coming on clouds" does refer to his second coming.What are your thoughts on this? All symbolism? Or do you think Matthew is refering to the return of Jesus? Coming in his glory? Angels with him? Sitting on this throne? Nations gathered before him? Seperating people, rewarding some, punishing others?31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’40 The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’44 They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Not sure why you keep bringing up about what forum this is. I didnt start this debate on the second coming and others are discussing similiar issues. In fact, this thread is about Jesus being a false prophet. I have every intention after "proving" Jesus was wrong about his prediction of the end times to show why he is a false prophet. I havent forgetten what we were discussing earlier. I do understand the context of what was happening in Matthew. I think its vital, bc the author believed those were the end times. I think you are completely misunderstanding what I am stating. Again, I never stated there wasnt symbolism, I am stating the terminlogy "coming on clouds" actually means, just that, his return.In fact, just to have a clearer understanding of what GDR is trying to say, I went to close to 20 Christian sites looking up information on this topic. Every single one of them also believe that "coming on clouds" refers to the return of Jesus.You seem to focus on the fact that Matthew used OT scripture, which somehow automatically implies that he is using the same context as the author in the OT. Why assume that? Of the four gospels, Matthew uses quite a bit of OT scripture and twists the context to his own needs. Immanuel? "Seem to imply"? So you're not sure then.Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."Acts 1:9-11Do you believe this is symbolism? Doesnt is state that the same manner in which Jesus was taken up (clouds), he shall return?Now if this is the case, why wouldnt Matthew be using "coming on clouds" to mean the same?Take care.

Hi again. I have a lil time, so here goes... This is where we disagree.Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."Acts 1:9-11Are there clouds in this instance symbolic? Is this ascension symbolic? Where was heaven believed to be? In the air, up above. Sorry, but the clouds Jesus "floats" to, are literal. Notice it also states, when Jesus returns, it will be in the same manner!Mark 26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.Do you believe Mark is stating that Jesus is coming to the father and these verses have nothing to do with the return of Jesus?Why is Jesus sending his angels to go to the Father? It makes more sense to state the angels are with Jesus for his return to earth.1 Thessalonians 4
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.Paul obviously believes the end times are near. Another example of "clouds", which clearly has shows they're literal. Those going to the clouds, to be with the Lord IN THE AIR.I'll use these verses again (below) to make my point. You earlier stated I was not using the correct context, not sure what you mean though. The context is god speaking. Exclaiming what is going to occur with Jesus. Now again, you claim the "clouds" refers to Jesus going to the Father. Yet, Jesus is aleady with god at this point, in heaven. It makes more sense to state "coming with clouds" is Jesus leaving heaven, for earth. In fact, it states those on earth will see him.7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,[b]
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him.[c]
So shall it be! Amen.8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.Basically, our two viewpoints hinge on on crucial aspect. You believe "coming on clouds" means Jesus is GOING to the Father, while I hold the belief it means he is RETURNING to earth.Here is a key example where I have a serious problem with your viewpoint.You have admitted that Matthew 25: 46 refers to the end times. Yet when I give you:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.You state: To me, it seems like you ignore the context competely.31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.Nations gathered before Jesus. Will this occur during the Roman crisis or after his return?34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’Mankind is seperated.37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’40 The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’Some will be rewarded.41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’Jesus is talking about punishment for those unsaved. Hell. Eternal fire. This will only occur after his return.44 They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.From verse 31 to 46, the words of Jesus clearly convey how he will return and what will occur.I'll be back in a few days if you respond. Take care.

All of the Gospels show that Jesus was constantly using the Hebrew scriptures to explain who He was and what He was about. He taught in the temple. He was a Jew, teaching Jews and using their scriptures so that they would understand His place in the context of the Jewish story. He claims to be the fulfllment of those scriptures, the culmination or climax of all the laws and the prophets.Why would He quote from their scriptures but mean something different than the quote He was using?

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Matthew twists quite a few OT scriptures to create his story.Matthew 1:23
The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him ImmanuelJesus was never called Immanuel. Matthew grabs this fromIsaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.Isaiah, which has been covered numerous times on this site, has nothing to do with Jesus whatsover.As I stated earlier, Matthew grabs quite a bit of OT scripture and creates stories around them, ignoring the initial context.Just bc Matthew used Daniel, doesnt mean it has the exact same meaning.Every Christian site I have ever read which has dealt with the second coming, and there have been hundreds through the years, have stated "coming on clouds" refers to Jesus return. I am not denying your viewpoint may be held by some, but the majority agree, it refers to his second coming. PD and yourself, seem to imply that Im in the minority here concerning which verses refer to the end times and which do not.Take care.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : Replaced "thread" with the "site".

How do you know Matthew used Daniel in the correct context?Here is another example I thought of.Thus says the LORD, "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more." (Jeremiah 31:15)Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its environs, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the magi. Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying, "A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children; and she refused to be comforted, because they were no more." (Matthew 2:16-18)And one more.And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, Out of Egypt have I called my son. (Matthew 2:15)1 When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.[a]
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.
3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.
4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love.
To them I was like one who lifts
a little child to the cheek,
and I bent down to feed them. (Hosea 11)As you can see, unless you want to invoke the made up "dual prophecy", Matthew takes OT scripture and puts a spin on it giving it a new meaning.So yes, I do have a problem with accepting that Matthew used Daniel in the exact same context, with each word conveying the exact same meaning.The fact Matthew uses the term "coming on clouds" while talking about angels being with Jesus, all nations coming together, seperating those who are saved and unsaved....there really is only one meaning IMO. It refers to his return.Ok, I'm done babbling. Talk to you in a few days.