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Author Topic:   Climate Change Delusion
Malvern
Junior Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 20
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio USA
Joined: 04-22-2011


Message 16 of 52 (624530)
07-18-2011 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by frako
07-18-2011 1:53 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Well no you would probably have to store it where you pumped the oil out because of the massive volume the gas would take. The problem being if it gets out everything in the vicinity gets suffocated.

Ah, let me check the financial incentive chart. An oil company pumps out the oil and they sell it and make a profit. Now a tank(?) truck pulls up to the same well and the oil company is paid by __________ (fill in the blank) to pump CO2 back into the well and cap it. And the liability for any leaks is the responsibility of ___________ (fill in the blank) in perpetuity (forever).

Meanwhile, let me pass on a little anecdote. DATELINE: Mayfield Village, Ohio on a frosty fall Sunday morning in the year 2002. It is about 9:00 AM, the sky is crystal clear, it is dead calm and there is frost on the ground in this certain church parking lot in a wooded area adjacent to a county park. Nearby is an abandoned gas well that has been leaking slowly for years. The amount of leaked gas has not been enough to prompt any action by any state or local government agency or oil company, despite repeated complaints. So, people grumbled and put up with the occasional gas odor.
Enter one church goer in his Olds who parks his car and gets out to have a quick smoke before going into church. He uses a match to light up and flicks the match into the gravel parking lot. KA-F-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-M! A blue sheet of flame races across the parking lot and scatters the church goers in a frantic dash to get out of the way.
The gas well was soon quickly sealed. Imagine that. But it took a near disaster to get any action. So, you can see why I have no confidence in underground storage schemes that could span decades.

(:raig


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 07-18-2011 3:12 PM Malvern has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 17 of 52 (624541)
07-18-2011 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Malvern
07-18-2011 2:45 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Meanwhile, let me pass on a little anecdote. DATELINE: Mayfield Village, Ohio on a frosty fall Sunday morning in the year 2002. It is about 9:00 AM, the sky is crystal clear, it is dead calm and there is frost on the ground in this certain church parking lot in a wooded area adjacent to a county park. Nearby is an abandoned gas well that has been leaking slowly for years. The amount of leaked gas has not been enough to prompt any action by any state or local government agency or oil company, despite repeated complaints. So, people grumbled and put up with the occasional gas odor.
Enter one church goer in his Olds who parks his car and gets out to have a quick smoke before going into church. He uses a match to light up and flicks the match into the gravel parking lot. KA-F-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-M! A blue sheet of flame races across the parking lot and scatters the church goers in a frantic dash to get out of the way.
The gas well was soon quickly sealed. Imagine that. But it took a near disaster to get any action. So, you can see why I have no confidence in underground storage schemes that could span decades.

However, you do seem to agree that gas can be captured in the ground if we wanted to, correct?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Malvern, posted 07-18-2011 2:45 PM Malvern has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Malvern, posted 07-18-2011 3:23 PM Taq has responded

  
Malvern
Junior Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 20
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio USA
Joined: 04-22-2011


Message 18 of 52 (624543)
07-18-2011 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
07-18-2011 3:12 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Oh, yes. I'm not arguing with the technology. But my years of church going has taught me that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

(:raig


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 07-18-2011 3:12 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by frako, posted 07-18-2011 4:56 PM Malvern has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Taq, posted 07-18-2011 5:04 PM Malvern has responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 19 of 52 (624557)
07-18-2011 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Malvern
07-18-2011 3:23 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
If you read the next sentence you will see that i have pointed out that problem.

But given that technology is progressing ever faster we might find another solution but if we dont slow down global warming we might go past the point of no return when such options are available.

Like launching bottles of compressed Co2 in to space via a "HARP gun"or something similar.


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 Message 18 by Malvern, posted 07-18-2011 3:23 PM Malvern has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by fearandloathing, posted 07-18-2011 5:19 PM frako has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 20 of 52 (624559)
07-18-2011 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Malvern
07-18-2011 3:23 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Oh, yes. I'm not arguing with the technology. But my years of church going has taught me that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Can you name one problem that was solved through cynicism?

It would seem to me that we should ignore people who think that something will fail before it is even tried.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Malvern, posted 07-18-2011 3:23 PM Malvern has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Malvern, posted 07-19-2011 11:14 AM Taq has responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 21 of 52 (624562)
07-18-2011 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by frako
07-18-2011 4:56 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Hi Frako,

I don't think shooting co2 into space would be cost effective, it all comes down to money sadly. I remember seeing a few things on algae and always thought that it may help us in cleaning up power plants that use fossil fuels, and actually provide an alternative source of energy as a by-product.

quote:
Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40% less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86% less nitrous oxide.

After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation.


If we were to choose not to process the algae into fuel then its biomass would contain the sequestered co2 and we could then dispose/store it. It could probably be used for many things including food and fertilizer as opposed to re using it as fuel also, but I am not sure of how it could be used so it wouldn't release the co2 it had stored.

AbE... I think you mean RAIL Gun...not HARP???

Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by frako, posted 07-18-2011 4:56 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by frako, posted 07-18-2011 5:26 PM fearandloathing has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 22 of 52 (624563)
07-18-2011 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by fearandloathing
07-18-2011 5:19 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Yea that harp gun in to space was the first thing that poped in to my head im just saying that there are many possibilities coming our way many new technologies that could deal with the problem but if we let global warming go too fare they wont matter.

p.s.
yea rail gun lol

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


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Malvern
Junior Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 20
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio USA
Joined: 04-22-2011


Message 23 of 52 (624677)
07-19-2011 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taq
07-18-2011 5:04 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Fine Taq,

Set up a test site. Tell the people there that you want to store a tasteless, odorless gas underground (and under pressure?) that has the potential to kill them.

Seriously, where are you going to store CO2 and who accepts the liability and who pays for it? These are not just technical questions. These are political and economic issues that have to pass muster with a whole boatload of people before it becomes reality. My cynicism is not with the technology per se. It is with the pragmatic issues that surround the technology that could have a devastating impact on people and the environment if it goes awry.

Okay, here's some simple technical questions that I don't know the answer to. What happens to the ground water in the area of CO2 stored under pressure? Does it absorb it? To what extent? Should you just add corn syrup and flavoring and call it Dr. Pepper? Then, maybe you get get a return on your investment.

(:raig


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Taq, posted 07-18-2011 5:04 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by fearandloathing, posted 07-19-2011 11:48 AM Malvern has responded
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 07-19-2011 9:13 PM Malvern has responded

    
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 24 of 52 (624681)
07-19-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Malvern
07-19-2011 11:14 AM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Set up a test site. Tell the people there that you want to store a tasteless, odorless gas underground (and under pressure?) that has the potential to kill them.

You should Google underground gas storage and you will see we already store large amounts that way already in many countries. Natural gas is also odorless, odor is added for safety reasons in the distribution phase, and its explosive where as co2 isn't. Do you not think odor could be added to co2 that could be stored in a similar fashion?

There are plenty of places we could store co2 in old production fields, many offshore where they would be safer to humans in the event of an accident.


Natural gas is stored in underground (A) salt formations, (C) aquifer reservoirs and (D) depleted reservoirs.[2]

If it can and is done safely be the natural gas industry then why do you think we couldn't use same technology for co2?

Wiki

Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Malvern, posted 07-19-2011 11:14 AM Malvern has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Malvern, posted 07-19-2011 12:28 PM fearandloathing has not yet responded

    
Malvern
Junior Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 20
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio USA
Joined: 04-22-2011


Message 25 of 52 (624687)
07-19-2011 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by fearandloathing
07-19-2011 11:48 AM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Excellent!

So, it's doable and has been doneable (sorry). What kind of volume storage are we talking about? What has been suggested?

Natural gas is stored and has the potential of being used, so there is a profit incentive. But what about CO2? If you're just trying to take it out of circulation, then I see a CO2 tax to pay for it's storage. Sound reasonable?

(:raig


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Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 26 of 52 (624723)
07-19-2011 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Malvern
07-19-2011 12:28 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Natural gas is stored and has the potential of being used, so there is a profit incentive. But what about CO2? If you're just trying to take it out of circulation, then I see a CO2 tax to pay for it's storage. Sound reasonable?

You could probably make it a hidden and fair tax say every gallon of fuel has a bit of tax on it that goes to co2 storage, every watt of energy from a coal plant also .... So as much co2 as you contribute you also pay to store away for future generations to deal with


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Malvern, posted 07-19-2011 12:28 PM Malvern has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 27 of 52 (624729)
07-19-2011 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Malvern
07-19-2011 12:28 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
So, does this mean it is worth (i.e. won't hurt the balance book) to try to make the planet better for out grand kids?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Malvern, posted 07-19-2011 12:28 PM Malvern has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 28 of 52 (624765)
07-19-2011 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Malvern
07-19-2011 11:14 AM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Set up a test site. Tell the people there that you want to store a tasteless, odorless gas underground (and under pressure?) that has the potential to kill them.

You do realize that people already do live on top of massive natural gas reserves that, if released, would kill them, right?

Seriously, where are you going to store CO2 and who accepts the liability and who pays for it? These are not just technical questions. These are political and economic issues that have to pass muster with a whole boatload of people before it becomes reality. My cynicism is not with the technology per se. It is with the pragmatic issues that surround the technology that could have a devastating impact on people and the environment if it goes awry.

So how was Iceland able to do it?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...and-set-capture-carbon-its-rocks


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Malvern, posted 07-19-2011 11:14 AM Malvern has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Malvern, posted 07-20-2011 11:53 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Malvern
Junior Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 20
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio USA
Joined: 04-22-2011


Message 29 of 52 (624857)
07-20-2011 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
07-19-2011 9:13 PM


Re: Giving them a chance.
Thank you for that, Taq

Reducing CO2 to a solid state makes me feel a bit better. It makes sense and appears to be a lot safer. I still don't know how stored gaseous CO2 interacts with the water table or if it makes any difference or not.

In the meantime, the article on Iceland got me thinking about Hawaii. My cynicism in the cluelessness of Americans in positions of power and authority has been fully restored. Hawaii is sitting on top of a volcano for God's sake and 87% of their electricity is generated by petroleum and 8% by coal. The best technology in the world doesn't mean squat if you don't use it. What does Iceland have that Hawaii doesn't? Backbone? Vision? Commitment?

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/...lectricity.cfm/state=HI#fuel

(:raig


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 31 by frako, posted 07-20-2011 12:12 PM Malvern has responded
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2011 8:14 AM Malvern has responded

    
Malvern
Junior Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 20
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio USA
Joined: 04-22-2011


Message 30 of 52 (624858)
07-20-2011 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Malvern
07-20-2011 11:53 AM


Re: Giving them a chance.
And add this to my previous post.

http://www.nytimes.com/...lan-to-capture-carbon-dioxide.html

Again, my cynicism is not with the technology of reducing or capturing carbon emissions.

(:raig


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Malvern, posted 07-20-2011 11:53 AM Malvern has not yet responded

    
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