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Author Topic:   Cern Debate:
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 34 of 51 (678912)
11-11-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
11-11-2012 10:37 AM


Re: Philosophical jabberwocky
By definition a real GOD is supernatural. Anything supernatural is not natural.
It really is that simple.
Well since we disagree on that, we just have to agree to disagree on those points. So...I have nothing to debate with you concerning these things.
Supernatural would imply something is beyond understanding, and natural to me means actually real. Anything real is natural by my definition; even if it's not understood.
Nothing real to me is ever really supernatural.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 11-11-2012 10:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 11-11-2012 10:54 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 36 of 51 (678922)
11-11-2012 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
11-11-2012 10:54 AM


Re: Philosophical jabberwocky
Then the god you are searching for is not supernatural.
Correct.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 11-11-2012 10:54 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 11-12-2012 10:00 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 38 of 51 (679084)
11-12-2012 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
11-12-2012 10:00 AM


Re: Newsflash: God is defined.
Any "God" not supernatural is no God to me.
I once saw a movie where a man spoke of dogs, saying "we are their Gods" and I'm sure to the eyes of an animal that trusts it's human, we are. We have cars and other things no animal can understand, yet the animals know we hold the power over those things. But what is supernatural to them, is quite natural to us.
It is a difficult thing to wrap my mind around the possibility that we exist inside of a greater being, important to it somehow...Maybe similar to bacteria in our bodies. Which hold an important function. Yet how could we call ourselves God to a living thing that is so basic it is not even aware of its host.
Everything is relative to a perspective. Our perspective does not allow us the ability to stand back and see the universe in real time and location. I have not yet seen a star map that would accurately display the planets and stars and galaxy as they would be located in this current moment, as the light we see is of locations of things at the age of the light that has reached us.
Supernatural needs better definition, because if it is real, it is natural, it is just beyond our capacity to understand.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 11-12-2012 10:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 11-13-2012 4:19 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 41 of 51 (679387)
11-13-2012 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taq
11-13-2012 11:28 AM


Re: Beware the jabberwock my son!
Does it matter if it is a possiblity?
Yes it does matter. and higher being is literally defined as greater than our current state of 'being' which by all evidence is potential, since every living species has a higher being that its own species, except for humans, as humans are the greatest state of being currently found. Yet that's foolish to assume the end of being given the previous observation. And observations of the magnitude of the universe we live in.
If you ignore potentials, you have limited ability to ask the right questions, and you will agree that science is about asking the right questions if you have any real science knowledge.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 11:28 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 6:01 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 42 of 51 (679388)
11-13-2012 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by GDR
11-13-2012 4:19 PM


Re: Is Science Knocking on Heaven's Door?
If time and space are illusions then it seems likely that there is a greater reality that those illusions are a reflection of which leads to the idea that we aren’t alone.
Well...I'm not really sure about religious doctrine anymore. But Time as I use it mathematically is very real. it is a measure between an areas distance and how long it takes to reach that distance at a given velocity. Now space-time, or other more advanced areas of science may have a different concept for time, as many words used scientifically may have different meanings and values associate4d with them.
I do not believe that science and religion need to merge. But I do believe scientists should stop using science facts as an excuse to force their anti-religious agendas on those who choose to follow a God. But I also believe that religious leaders, especially Christian ones, should not alienate science or downplay its importance. The religious leaders that are doing that many times are just trying to keep their jobs professing a faith they do not have, and a belief they do not believe for purely financial gain, and in order to do that they must teach their followers to endorse ignorance. That’s pretty easy to do and allows people a scapegoat for their personal decisions to be lazy and safely ignorant of the world around them.
But that is not the path of all religious peoples. Many religious are very intelligent, even wise, and are good problem solvers. Their faith does not need destroyed for them to be productive members if the science community. Science just needs to stop trying to destroy religions with their doctrine, and explain and report the data they have found more accurately, without throwing spins on why a religion is "wrong". if they were to do that, those religious can examine the data, and come to whatever conclusion they will personally develop within their capabilities of understanding.
God is rarely defined the same way by two people in idea, even if they use the same words to describe what God is to them in words. After examination of different religions and their versions, the definition that is most common has been that God is beyond comprehension, and his power is not possible to ascertain.
My take on that is that sure, I can fit that within the bounds of my definition of God, which is a physical definition and location of God, as the first energy that all has come from, and still exists inside of.
Where I differ with others definitions is that I do not believe that it is beyond our ability to connect with that energy on a conscious level if it does exists. But the path to being able to do that starts with accepting the possibility of it, and looking for ways to explore that potential through the understanding of the body we are in, namely: the greater body of space we call the 'universe', and the communication of greater species through consciousness.
I'm not a fighter for the left or the right concerning science and religion, I am the middle ground. I am the one that say's I know what I know, but I'll accept what I do not know.
The evidence of existing things and all science point to a beginning of sorts, a singularity beyond math’s description. Many religious texts agree with that. (i.e. in the beginning there was only God)
So I've drawn my conclusions to best fit what is most believable given the data we have been exposed to, and accepted. Be it religious, or scientific.
My final point here is that I believe when science has enough answers it will conclude that God is. And my hope is that in discovering that, we can open a door to communication, and get a little help with our foolish societies on how to manage the human species and our lives for greater fulfillment, and prosperities.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 11-13-2012 4:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by GDR, posted 11-13-2012 6:48 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 44 of 51 (679397)
11-13-2012 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taq
11-13-2012 6:01 PM


Re: Beware the jabberwock my son!
There are an infinite number of potential explanations for any phenomenon. Using your approach we would never get around to asking questions because we need to create an infinite list of "potentials".
You are not even listening. you are closing your eyes and your ears. you have made whatever your belief is your mantra, you know I've pointed out a valuable and real path to exploring and demystifying what is called God, and you will not accept that.
What is supernatural exactly? It defies all knowledge of physics and human understanding. so go back 50 years ago, and you'll see that if the technology we had today was in someone’s hands back then, people would consider them supernatural for being able to make objects invisible, or maybe being able to doctor and Photoshop pictures we could convince the entire world of a phenomenon that does not exist. And was it supernatural to be able to project an image into the ground from space with enough energy? But wouldn't it appear supernatural if a man on a bench melted in broad daylight?
What is supernatural?
Is it king Midas turning everything to gold with but a touch? Or those leprechauns that so many here seem to like to talk about? Should God be able to make atoms fly apart by command if the designer set a process in motion instead with the aim of the atom to eventually split, what is the difference?
What world did you build that you can say supernatural is anything more than a word used to describe the apparently impossible? But here is the rub: if it is impossible, then it's supernatural. But it will never be real.
I'm discussing reality. If you would like to start there, then examine your argument, because you’re leaving me with the impression your dense.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 6:01 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Taq, posted 11-14-2012 11:05 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 46 of 51 (679404)
11-13-2012 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by GDR
11-13-2012 6:48 PM


Re: Is Science Knocking on Heaven's Door?
Would you consider yourself a pantheist?
I consider myself a pohilosopher, a student of life. I do not like to rule out possibilities, but I like to follow what is most probable.
quote:
Pantheism is the view that everything is part of an all-encompassing, immanent God
-Encyclopedia of Philosophy ed. Paul Edwards. New York: Macmillan and Free Press. 1967. pp. 34.
I believe this is most probably true, yet the meaning of the statement can change quickly with different definitions for God.
Isn't that what theists believe they do on one level or another now? Isn't prayer an attempt to reach our from our consciousness in order to communicate with that greater species namely God?
I'm pretty sure that is exactly what they believe. but having been a theist, I cannot explain certain events in my life, but I do not have validation of them, nor whether or not my prayers were heard by other humans and brought true, or bore fruit due to the peace my mind and heart received for having prayed. or if God has power. I still pray. I'd say prayer is healthy. But I'm pretty sure the thoughts that come from prayer are the answers that we already knew if we ask the right questions. But the mystery of dreams reminds me that consciousness has mystery.
I think in my previous post I was suggesting that science is getting closer to understanding what is beyond what we currently call the natural. Presumably another universe at this point would be supernatural but if science is able to identify it then presumably what was supernatural becomes natural
My sentiments exactly.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by GDR, posted 11-13-2012 6:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 11-13-2012 8:36 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 48 of 51 (679464)
11-13-2012 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by GDR
11-13-2012 8:36 PM


Re: Is Science Knocking on Heaven's Door?
Here is an article on the research into other dimensions at the Fermilab.
Other Dimensions and Neutrinos
What would we experience if instead of being photon detectors we were neutrino detectors?
That’s a very interesting question. I watch plant life, and notice that they absorb specific nutrients, and communicate via chemical releases that are detected by trees of its own species. That’s vision I suppose, to be able to receive.
Sound is received, but is less valuable? Maybe it's the interpretation of the wavelengths that is different. Can anyone see sound? (Bats?) Or see a flavor?
I wonder how the brain is interpreting sensory data, is it an algorithm? Is it some on/off zero and one, or what?
See, we can read, and write and store every sensory data type on a computer we want to, send it across a few states and store it forever, and our brains seem to do that with chemical tracing, electricity, and cell behavior. Does that mean we need scientists from each of those fields examining the systems for organization? Or can one researcher with enough college do the task alone?
Oh...about the other dimensions:
At a certain point of size, it becomes invisible as a single entity and appears to be a whole. For instance a wall: which has what appears to be areas of 'space' between molecules. But if closer examined, you notice the space is not empty, but composed of particles, which when closer examined appear as a whole.
If you can imagine that...it is like imagining infinity. Sure it's real, as a bubble descends into the deep of an ocean, it shrinks as it descends . To follow that pattern things look quite different, as if string theory is spring theory; the bubbles wavelength increases as it spirals smaller and descends deeper, faster, faster! And then... it looks like a line.
So limited in vision...to not watch what happens as it gets bigger. The line becomes a speedy wave...then slower in wavelength, as it rises, and expands, becoming larger and larger, slower and slower the wavelength gets so big that from where you stand, all you see is a line from -infinity to infinity.
The larger it gets, the more that is contained within it.
So at what wavelength along that system is the earth?
Edited by tesla, : So at wavelength along that system is the earth?
Edited by tesla, : what

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 11-13-2012 8:36 PM GDR has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 49 of 51 (679466)
11-13-2012 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by GDR
11-13-2012 8:36 PM


Re: Is Science Knocking on Heaven's Door?
quote:
a fourth kind of neutrino may be bouncing in and out of extra dimensions.
Well...I guess I'll share a link, it explains how a shape can look weird or invisible better than I can. It could be relevant to the behavior. *shrug*
Invisibility cloaking in 'perfect' demonstration - BBC News

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 11-13-2012 8:36 PM GDR has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1623 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 51 of 51 (679623)
11-14-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Taq
11-14-2012 11:05 AM


Re: Beware the jabberwock my son!
No, you are discussing potentials.
True enough. so explore what you can.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Taq, posted 11-14-2012 11:05 AM Taq has not replied

  
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