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Author Topic:   the new new testament???
Theodoric
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Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 38 of 226 (702740)
07-11-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dawn Bertot
07-09-2013 5:48 PM


Re: Not interpretation, plain ole history
My point was that the people that were there already know what the truth and facts are
No they don't. They have a subjective idea of what went on within their senses of sight and hearing. They know nothing that happened over the next hill. In the cases of warfare it is call the "fog of war". That is why eyewitness testimony has been shown repeatedly not be reliable.
If your premise was correct, then there would not be so much conflicting testimony in the Zimmerman trial. Also, the personal stories from war do not reflect what really happened. Historians take the personal reflections and action reports and construct what really happened out of them.
Maybe you should not spout of about things you seemingly know nothing about.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-09-2013 5:48 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
(1)
Message 43 of 226 (703069)
07-14-2013 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dawn Bertot
07-14-2013 4:51 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Im sure if Josephus, knew who John the baptist and James the brother of Jesus was, it wouldnt be to hard for the people directly involved to figure out who Paul, Peter, Matthew or John were, correct?
You seem to be implying that Josephus had first hand knowledge of James the brother of Jesus. John the Baptist seems to have been a historical figure so you are just trying to muddy the waters by putting the two together.
Nothing Josephus wrote, or even what he has been reputed to have written, shows that he knew who this James guy.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-14-2013 4:51 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 92 of 226 (704004)
08-01-2013 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dawn Bertot
07-31-2013 11:34 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Josephus. Pliny, Sutoneious and many others and all you do is find fault with every single one.
Because there is fault with all of them.
Josephus we have discussed. But here we go again
quote:
JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)
The famous Testamonium Flavianum is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :
* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the Jew Josephus (who refused to acknowledge anyone "messiah"),
* The T.F. comes in several versions of various ages,
* The T.F. was not mentioned by Origen when he reviewed Josephus - Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.
* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.
* (The other tiny passage in Josephus is probably a later interpolation.)
quote:
PLINY the Younger (c.112CE)
About 80 years after the alleged events, (and over 40 years after the war) Pliny refered to Christians who worshipped a "Christ" as a god, but there is no reference to a historical Jesus or Gospel events.
So,
Pliny is not evidence for a historical Jesus of Nazareth,
just evidence for 2nd century Christians who worshipped a Christ.
quote:
SUETONIUS (c.115CE)
Roughly 80-90 years after the alleged Gospel events, Suetonius refers to a "Chrestus" who stirred the Jews to trouble in Rome during Claudius' time, but:
* this "Chrestus" is a Greek name (from "good") and is also a mystic name for an initiate, it is not the same as "Christos"
* this Chrestus was apparently active in Rome, Jesus never was,
* Jesus was never said to have lead the Jews in Rome into trouble during Claudius' time.
So, this passage is unlikely to refer to Jesus of Nazareth at all
Kapyong did a number of great post on this back in 2005. Rather than rewrite the arguments, I find his points to be definitive and the best.
Kapyong posts on Jesus

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-31-2013 11:34 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 7:32 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 100 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-05-2013 8:20 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 94 of 226 (704079)
08-03-2013 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by kofh2u
08-02-2013 7:32 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Maybe you should address my post, not preach.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 7:32 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by kofh2u, posted 08-03-2013 2:12 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 96 of 226 (704089)
08-03-2013 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by kofh2u
08-03-2013 2:12 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
No. It is preaching.
You are not imparting knowledge. You are advocating what you feel is truth.
Do you have have anything relevant to my post that you responded to?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by kofh2u, posted 08-03-2013 2:12 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by kofh2u, posted 08-03-2013 9:39 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 98 of 226 (704109)
08-03-2013 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by kofh2u
08-03-2013 9:39 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Of course what the Jews have said since 32AD is relevant to your post that demands some non-Christian written evidence of a Jesus.
(Are you sure that your ego isn't bruised in that this clearly shows you have been dead wrong all along??????)
But alas I was discussing Josephus. Pliny, Sutoneious. So I think that would make you a troll. How would your irrelevant ramblings bruise my ego?
I will follow you down your rabbit-hole for a bit. Show something "the Jews" have written that shows a historical jesus.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by kofh2u, posted 08-03-2013 9:39 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by kofh2u, posted 08-06-2013 8:49 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 101 of 226 (704217)
08-06-2013 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Dawn Bertot
08-05-2013 8:20 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Example, no serious collective scholarship rejects as unauthentic the references to John the baptist and James. Yes there are disagreements, but the consensus is that they are authentic.
Did you decide to throw in John the Baptist to cloudy things a bit. You continue to lump John into the discussion. This just a continuing example of your dishonesty. There is plenty of serious scholarship that rejects the references to Jesus. The reference to James may not even be related to your Jesus at all. Jesus was not a rare name. Or it might be an interpolation also.
Your very serious problem is that you can provide no information concerning the lack of resistence concerning Eusebius' use of Josephus. there is simply nothing and there should be
Plenty has been provided.
The second and most serious problem is that you reject the testimony of independent gospel and bible writers that claim to have been a part of the events themself.
Why shouldn't I? Why should I trust what they say when there is no independent source backing them up? Even if the Josephus is original, how do it support your claim of the Gospels being correct?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-05-2013 8:20 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 141 of 226 (704905)
08-19-2013 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Dawn Bertot
08-19-2013 10:42 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Is there enough evidence that Napolean wittnessed certain flying metal discs in the sky at a certain battle. Answer probably yes. Atleast he saw something to make him speak of it and record it.
What is this all about?
ABE
Oh and are you talking about Napoleon?
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-19-2013 10:42 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2013 4:15 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 144 of 226 (704938)
08-20-2013 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by NoNukes
08-20-2013 4:15 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
I am amazed the crap people will repeat without even looking to make sure they even have the story correct.
I was aware of the Alexander story. I came across it on the internet a couple years back and tried to follow the story back to an original source. It ended up being circular sourcing. There were three sites that basically cited each other as a source. There is no historical source at all.
Now a Napoleon story is new to me. I have read a few bios on him and have done some study of the Napoleonic wars. I have never come across anything like this. I guess a confusion with Alexander is probably the most likely explanation. That Napoleon could be mistaken with Alexander is stunning. They are greatly removed form each other in time and space. But they both are associated with Egypt so I guess therein lies the confusion.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2013 4:15 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 147 of 226 (704946)
08-20-2013 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Dawn Bertot
08-20-2013 6:20 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Undercut? Not at all
Yes and also lame.You made a claim without any historical source. Therefore all it did was make you look silly, ignorant and uneducated.
Not bad for one post.
Please show us any evidence for Napoleon(notice the spelling) or Alexander seeing "flying discs". If you do not have any, then what was the purpose of even mentioning something so stupid.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2013 6:20 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 158 of 226 (705056)
08-22-2013 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by NoNukes
08-22-2013 2:15 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are generally not claimed to be eyewitnesses.
But Dawn claims they are.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2013 2:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2013 2:35 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 164 of 226 (705190)
08-24-2013 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by kofh2u
08-24-2013 9:39 AM


Re: Really??
I don't believe everything I read in the Newspaper, but when a starling event like the fall of Rome, and the accompanying total conversion of that previous decadent culture with all its beliefs in mythological Gods just changed, by a vote to willing do so, I must take the reasons of the Gospels seriously as what caused this.
You really need to study some history. People of the Roman Empire and its successor states did not become christian, because they felt some great spiritual change. They became christian because their rulers became christian and they were told to be christian.
Many of the barbarian tribes responsible for bringing down the empire were not christian. Those that were tended be Arians.
If your argument were true than the empire would have survived after the Emperors became christian.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 9:39 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 10:57 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 166 of 226 (705208)
08-24-2013 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by kofh2u
08-24-2013 10:57 AM


Re: Really??
I don't know why I even bothered trying to engage you.
You know nothing about history and you will distort anything to fit your beliefs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 10:57 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 8:13 PM Theodoric has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 177 of 226 (705357)
08-26-2013 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by kofh2u
08-26-2013 12:32 PM


Re: winning people over...
But the BEST testimony to Jesus is the Jews themselves, who have reported against him and what he said from the very beginning and recorded it in their Talmud.
Please provide these examples from the Talmud. Anyone can make assertions, lets see the actual evidence.
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah, the two candlestick witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).
LOL. You are a piece of work aren't you. As I have stated before, you will shoehorn anything in to support your out there beliefs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by kofh2u, posted 08-26-2013 12:32 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 184 of 226 (705560)
08-28-2013 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2013 11:45 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Personally, I don't think Jesus was a real person.
Then why are you trolling?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2013 11:45 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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