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Author Topic:   Creation According to Genesis: One Account or Two?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 96 of 98 (768237)
09-09-2015 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ICANT
05-08-2015 11:55 PM


Re: The Pluperfect in 2:8?
ICANT writes:
There is no such thing as a Pluperfect verb in Biblical Hebrew.
uh, yes there is.
quote:
This feature of succession characteristic of the wayyiqtol construction [= consecutive imperfect] becomes particularly evident when biblical writers, when they do not want to express succession, deliberately avoid wayyiqtol and replace it with w- .. qatal [= non-sentence-initial perfect].
(...)
This case is especially common in narratives, where w- .. qatal preceded by a qatal or wayyiqtol, corresponds to the pluperfect or past perfect in some European languages (...): Gn 31.33b-34 "and he went out (וַיֵּצֵא) of Leah's tent, and he went into (וַיָּבֹא) Rachel's tent. (34) Now Rachel had taken (וְרָחֵל לָקְחָה) the terafim and had put them (וַתְּשִׂמֵם) in the pack-saddle of the camel .." (as this last action occurs after the preceding one, the writer goes back to the wayyiqtol form); 1Sm 28.3 "Now Samuel was dead (וּשְׁמוּאֵל מֵת) and all Israel had mourned him (וַיִּסְפְּדוּ־לוֹ) and had buried him (וַיִּקְבְּרֻהוּ) in Ramah, his city. Meanwhile Saul had removed (וְשָׁאוּל הֵסִיר) from the land the necromancers and the soothsayers"; 2Sm 18.18; 1Kg 22.31; 2Kg 4.31; 25.5. Hebrew has no other way of expressing the value of the pluperfect than by avoiding wayyiqtol in this way2 (...).
2 It would thus be grammatically very irregular if a wayyiqtol had the value of the pluperfect. (...)
P. Joon & T. Muraoka (2009), A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, 2nd ed., p. 362.
here is another source: Without Form and Void - Chapter 3
pluperfects are constructed by placing the subject out of order, between the waw and the verb, rather than using a waw-consecutive.
Edited by arachnophilia, : disable smileys

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 97 of 98 (768238)
09-09-2015 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by NoNukes
05-09-2015 2:22 AM


Re: The Pluperfect in 2:8?
NoNukes writes:
We all understand that.
don't bite; he's incorrect. biblical hebrew does have a way of expressing concepts that align with pluperfects in english, and the proper studies of grammar detail them. i gave two sources above.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 98 of 98 (768239)
09-10-2015 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
05-04-2015 11:40 AM


Re: The Pluperfect in 2:8?
kbertsche writes:
And here's arachnophilia's quote of the text from Gen 2:4—25
man, i forget about this board for a couple of months, and everyone's talking about me.
There is one clear case in the above text where the waw-consecutive should be translated as pluperfect: the beginning of 2:15, "and God had placed man in the garden". This repeats the information of 2:8 "and then God placed man in the garden", after an aside describing the garden.
strictly speaking, no, that wouldn't be correct; it's still following the standard narrative waw-consecutive form. i suspect it's more that verse 15 is assigning his role, and not so much his physical location.
though arguable verse 8 does include a verb you could translate as a pluperfect:
quote:
וַיָּשֶׂם שָׁם, אֶת-הָאָדָם אֲשֶׁר יָצָר
"and there he placed the man that he made" or "had made". it's technically perfect, but i think you'll find nearly every translation renders it a pluperfect, because it just reads more smoothly. the concept doesn't change here, and i don't think it matters too much.
while we're on the topic, i think this is a place you can uncontroversially translate pluperfects.
quote:
וְכֹל שִׂיחַ הַשָּׂדֶה, טֶרֶם יִהְיֶה בָאָרֶץ, וְכָל-עֵשֶׂב הַשָּׂדֶה, טֶרֶם יִצְמָח: כִּי לֹא הִמְטִיר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, עַל-הָאָרֶץ, וְאָדָם אַיִן, לַעֲבֹד אֶת-הָאֲדָמָה (verse 5)
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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