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Author Topic:   Jimmy Carter
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 42 of 64 (766967)
08-24-2015 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by dronestar
08-24-2015 11:01 AM


Re: It's called leadership, but...
I sense a slight contradiction with your claims. On the one hand, you say that
quote:
During his watch, Carter aided and supported Nicaragua's then-dictator Anastasio Somoza, who murdered and repressed tens of thousands of his own people. When Somoza's forces were about to lose control of the main cities, Carter attempted to launch an invasion under the fig leaf of an intervention by the Organization of American States (OAS). The OAS refused and Carter then planned to send the US military to salvage Somoza's army, which was established by and beholden to the US government-but it was too late. Carter made sure that Somoza was ferried out of the country on a Red Cross-painted US aircraft. The C.I.A. under Carter helped to re-establish Somoza's army as a terrorist force against the people of Nicaragua.
but, at the same time, you assert
quote:
Carter used the full power of the office to install Sandanista Daniel Ortega in power in Nicaragua.
This would suggest that Carter was fighting to keep the Somoza dictatorship in power, whilst simultaneously using the full power of his office to overthrow him in favour of Ortega and the Sandanistas.
Have you accidentally intermingled incompatible criticisms from Carter's opponents to the right and left?

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 Message 40 by dronestar, posted 08-24-2015 11:01 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by dronestar, posted 08-24-2015 4:34 PM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 52 of 64 (767042)
08-25-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by dronestar
08-24-2015 4:34 PM


Re: It's called leadership, but...
Hey Caffeine,
My apologies, this stuff is difficult to list/explain in truncated fashion without detailed timelines.
Ortega and Somoza were both dictators. A president that valued humanitarianism/human rights would not have supported either.
Maybe this example will help . . . the US fully supported Egypt's Mubarak, UNTIL it was clear the Egyptians were going to dispose of him. The US couldn't control his 'departure,' so when Mubarak was shown the door, THEN the US threw their weight into supporting the next military dictator.
Of course, the difference in this case is that you're claiming the US was helping Somoza set up the military opposition to the Sandanista regime at the same time as they were enthusastically supporting the Sandanista regime.
In fact, the US never enthusiastically supported the Sandanistas. What they did, under Carter was provide aid to the new government (which briefly attempted to be a government of national unity before it transformed into a one-party state) with the intention of preventing the new Nicaraguan government from turning to the Soviet Union for support and becoming another staunch Soviet ally on the US's doorstep. This policy was obviously abandoned by Reagan's adminstration, which opted to overthrow the Sandanistas by force.
I'm unaware of any evidence of US support for the counter-revolution prior to 1981.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by dronestar, posted 08-24-2015 4:34 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by dronestar, posted 08-25-2015 4:23 PM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 54 of 64 (767060)
08-25-2015 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by dronestar
08-25-2015 4:23 PM


Re: It's called leadership, but...
Hmmm, I re-read my posts several times. Where did I write or imply the US was helping Somoza and the Sandanistas at the SAME TIME?
You wrote (or rather quoted someone else) that "the C.I.A. under Carter helped to re-establish Somoza's army as a terrorist force against the people of Nicaragua." There's no evidence of this (that I know of). Carter lobbied for the retention of some of Somoza's national guard in the new regime, to try and make sure Nicaragua did not become a Communist ally, but I don't know of any evidence that he actually funded or supported them (unlike Reagan).
Admittedly, I placed Carter's support for dictator Daniel Ortega as the last and least impressive item on my list because of the very small time that Carter's and Ortega's regimes overlapped. Nonetheless, it still seems you feel I overplayed Carter's involvement and Ortega should be fully removed from my "Carter's support of dictators list?" Correct?
Yes, and also that you (or your source) overplayed Carter's support for Somoza. While he did try and maintain Somoza's regime in power, he accepted when it became clear this was not possible. This was not a popular attitude with some in the CIA, and they were given a free hand under Reagan, with rather horrifying results.
I don't know enough to comment on any of the rest of your list.
Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by dronestar, posted 08-25-2015 4:23 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by dronestar, posted 08-26-2015 4:00 PM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 62 of 64 (767279)
08-27-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by dronestar
08-26-2015 4:00 PM


Re: Okay . . .
Surely you jest Pops. My goodness, you just wrote "[Carter] DID try and maintain Somoza's regime." One could similarly argue that since Carter has accepted it is no longer possible to support any other oppressions, tortures, or murders by the monsters on my list, those names should also be removed too?
I was only trying to question the claim that Carter helped to reform the National Guard as a counter-revolutionary militia after the fall of the Somoza regime - I'm not trying to justify support for Somoza.
Regarding the Red Cross planes - I can find many assertions of Carter arranging this, but no sources. I can, however, find contemporary press accounts of National Guardsmen fleeing the country in Red Cross planes - planes they seized at gunpoint. There doesn't seem to be any mention of US involvement in the case at the ICJ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by dronestar, posted 08-26-2015 4:00 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by dronestar, posted 08-27-2015 4:42 PM caffeine has not replied

  
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