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Author Topic:   Evidence For Belief
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5123
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 46 of 103 (846291)
01-02-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
01-02-2019 3:46 PM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
It seemed fairly straightforward to me. How does the Bible differ from The Lord of the Rings?

Well, they both have orcs and dragons, wizards and ghosts. But the names are different. That's probably not what you were talking about

... was it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 3:46 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14141
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 103 (877620)
06-19-2020 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
12-30-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
EvC Forum has traditionally been divided into two basic sections:
Science Forums and Social & Religious Forums.
One issue which we have discussed at length in our many threads and topics is the idea of whether or not Religious and/or Philosophical Belief requires a strict standard of evidence in order to be seriously considered as valid. In this topic, I wish to gather some of the points made by our various debates throughout the forum and present them all together in order to hopefully encourage a discussion on the idea of evidenced beliefs versus myths, legends, fantasies, and other unsupported assertions by believers and secular philosophers alike.

This topic is not limited to science nor is it confined to the dogma of belief.

It is hopefully a hybrid.
*************************************************
I started this topic at the end of 2018 and thought it timely to resurrect, mainly because of our current beef with a stubborn Dad.

ringo writes:

There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?

Thats my point. You cant nor did not invent the God i am discussing. At worst, you can claim that I invented Him, but perhaps you would need some evidence.

vimesey writes:

Assertion.
No evidence.
Fail.


To be precise, the failure in this case is the failure to present a supportable science based challenge. Note that this is a science Forum.

Dad, please listen to moderation. If you stay here at EvC, you will get challenged and perhaps someday will challenge others as your arguments become more refined and you are able to make valid points. If you challenge authority (which is ungodly, by the way) you will simply get suspended and we will be at a loss for not having you around to challenge and refine *our* arguments.

ringo,addressing Dad writes:

Again, you do not get to define science. Nobody cares what you think science is.


Well actually some of us *do* care. After all, if you respond to us in a Science Forum, we expect you to respond scientifically rather than emotionally. Which is why I usually stay out of this side of the Forum.
ringo writes:

I wasn't including people who grasp at any straw to prop up their failed beliefs.


ringo writes:

It isn't a definitive test but lack of evidence is a test. You accept that lack of evidence indicates non-existence of fairies, Loch Ness Monster, leprechauns, etc. don't you?

Yes but not on the grounds of lack of evidence. I reject them based on my belief.
ringo writes:

And a hiding God is pretty lame theology too.

You dont get to define what does and does not *make* God lame. Keep these sorts of comments inj Faith & Belief. You also dont get to define evidence over the entire Forum. You best stick to the science side should you choose to throw that word around. (at which point I move the topic out of Geology & The Flood)

Phat writes:

Yes but not on the grounds of lack of evidence. I reject them based on my belief.


ringo writes:

That's much worse, rejecting beliefs that are as valid or more valid than your own just because they interfere with the belief that you fell into by accident.


Phat writes:

You dont get to define what does and does not *make* God lame.


ringo writes:

Yes I do.

Phat writes:

You also dont get to define evidence over the entire Forum.


ringo writes:

I'm not. I'm using the accepted definition of evidence.

Phat writes:

You best stick to the science side should you choose to throw that word around.


ringo writes:

Faith and belief is not necessarily a blind rejection of evidence. We have every right to talk about evidence over here.

Edited by Phat, : added moved conversation

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 48 of 103 (877624)
06-19-2020 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:07 AM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?


Thats my point.

Actually, that's my point. If your God has no basis in reality - i.e. no evidence that he's doing something in the world, what good is he?

Phat writes:

You cant nor did not invent the God i am discussing. At worst, you can claim that I invented Him, but perhaps you would need some evidence.


Apologists made up the God you believe in.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:07 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14141
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 49 of 103 (877625)
06-19-2020 11:19 AM


Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
ringo writes:

That's much worse, rejecting beliefs that are as valid or more valid than your own just because they interfere with the belief that you fell into by accident.

Do you have any evidence that it was an accident? Do you have any reason to assert that all beliefs are equally valid? Might it not just be possible that some of us have the belief that is closest to reality or...in fact...that our God created the very parameters of the reality you seek to define?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:29 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 50 of 103 (877626)
06-19-2020 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:19 AM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
Phat writes:

Do you have any evidence that it was an accident?


Of course. People born into Christian cultures tend to be Christians, people who are born into Muslim cultures tend to be Muslims. If you had been born anywhere else in the world, do you think your beliefs would still be so American?

Phat writes:

Do you have any reason to assert that all beliefs are equally valid?


I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by putting your foolish beliefs on the same plane as other more sensible beliefs. They are equal in the sense that they equally lack evidence. They are not all equally sensible or palatable.

Phat writes:

Might it not just be possible that some of us have the belief that is closest to reality...


You tell me. Is it possible that Zeus is closest to reality?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:44 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14141
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 51 of 103 (877628)
06-19-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-30-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Chemtrails
ringo writes:

If there is evidence, there's no excuse for belief.

Belief is like a good insurance policy. It covers the Acts of God that your evidence-based insurance does not cover.

ringo writes:

Leprechauns hide because they want you to have faith in them. The Loch Ness monster hides because she wants you to have faith in her. Bigfoot hides because he wants you to have faith in him. Martians hide because they want you to have faith in them. Phlogiston hides because it wants you to have faith in it. The earth pretends to be round because it wants you to believe it's flat.

This is just silly talk. Evenj if the first critters did exist, the idea that the earth has a living conscious personality is itself another demon masquerading as an object of worship. Tree huggers beware.

ringo writes:

There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?

I have two points.
First, I did not invent God nor did the apologists. You can argue, as does jar, that humans create the gods they want. Thats a valid point. I disagree with it based on my own reasoning and my subjective experience. It seems clear to me also that GOD, if GOD exists and if GOD chose to relate to humans through Jesus, that He wont provide us with Objective proof (evidence for everyone) because it would essentially make us acknowledge Him and He wants that to be our decision and not our sane duty.

ringo writes:

Creativity is evidence of A creator - one of many - not THE Creator. In the case of humour, the creators are us.

That I will acknowledge as long as it makes me laugh. Ive never yet heard a good joke from God.

ringo writes:

Are the twelve patients who think they're Napoleon really Napoleon?

No more than the 12 patients who think they are your Disciples really your Disciples. Whats your point?

ringo writes:

We're confining reality to reality. Otherwise, we wouldn't have bothered to make up words for fantasy, fiction, etc.
And those chemicals didn't exist "forever", only since some time after the Big Bang.

Do we have any evidence that an uncaused first cause lit the fuse for this Bang you talk about?

Is Stephen Hawking as wise as the Prophet Isaiah? On what evidence do you base your reply?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:54 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14141
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 52 of 103 (877631)
06-19-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
06-19-2020 11:29 AM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
Phat writes:

Do you have any evidence that it was an accident?


ringo writes:

People born into Christian cultures tend to be Christians, people who are born into Muslim cultures tend to be Muslims. If you had been born anywhere else in the world, do you think your beliefs would still be so American?

First of all, Christianity is not "American". Second of all, there are Christians in every culture, even in Islamic Nations.
Phat writes:

Do you have any reason to assert that all beliefs are equally valid?


ringo writes:

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by putting your foolish beliefs on the same plane as other more sensible beliefs.

I await your evidence that there are more sensible beliefs than Christianity. This should be good!

ringo writes:

They are equal in the sense that they equally lack evidence.

Objectively but not subjectively. I will give you the benefit of the doubt in that you stand at the altar,flowers in hand, waiting for evidence to show up while having dumped belief because it was not objective enough for your standards.

Phat writes:

Might it not just be possible that some of us have the belief that is closest to reality...


You tell me. Is it possible that Zeus is closest to reality?
I suppose that with God all things are possible, but I am personally unimpressed with Zeus.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:29 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:05 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 53 of 103 (877633)
06-19-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:

Belief is like a good insurance policy.


That's a poor analogy. There are thousands of insurance companies and your belief is that only one of them pays out.

Phat writes:

This is just silly talk.


Of course. It was intended to be silly. It's a parody of your belief in a hiding god.

Phat writes:

You can argue, as does jar, that humans create the gods they want. Thats a valid point. I disagree with it based on my own reasoning and my subjective experience.


If there's any reasoning involved, why don't you present it instead of just parroting the apologists?

Phat writes:

It seems clear to me also that GOD, if GOD exists and if GOD chose to relate to humans through Jesus, that He wont provide us with Objective proof (evidence for everyone) because it would essentially make us acknowledge Him and He wants that to be our decision and not our sane duty.


Polly want a cracker?

Phat writes:

Do we have any evidence that an uncaused first cause lit the fuse for this Bang you talk about?


As far as I know, we have no definitive evidence for ANY "uncaused cause". That's not an excuse for you to make one up.

Phat writes:

Is Stephen Hawking as wise as the Prophet Isaiah?


How would you go about measuring wisdom?

Phat writes:

On what evidence do you base your reply?


You're looking at a computer right now that Stephen Hawking understood and Isaiah didn't.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:32 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 12:20 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 54 of 103 (877634)
06-19-2020 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:44 AM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
Phat writes:

First of all, Christianity is not "American".


Your cult is.

Phat writes:

Second of all, there are Christians in every culture, even in Islamic Nations.


And there are Muslims in every culture. The point is that most people acquire their religion accidentally by being born into it.

Phat writes:

I await your evidence that there are more sensible beliefs than Christianity.


Read my posts. I have pointed out many times how nonsensical your beliefs are. For just one example, the idea that God sent his "son" (himself) so that we could kill him and only then could he forgive us.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

They are equal in the sense that they equally lack evidence.

Objectively but not subjectively.

Will you ever learn? There is no such thing as subjective evidence.

Phat writes:

... I am personally unimpressed with Zeus.


But is it possible that he is closest to reality? That's what you asked me about your god.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 12:28 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14141
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 55 of 103 (877637)
06-19-2020 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
06-19-2020 11:54 AM


Re: Chemtrails
ringo writes:

There are thousands of insurance companies and your belief is that only one of them pays out.

Only one of them does pay out. And its not a matter of paying out...its a matter of Creating what we know as reality. God created all seen and unseen through Jesus Christ. Jesus is alive today. This *is* reality.

ringo writes:

It was intended to be silly. It's a parody of your belief in a hiding god.

God does not hide from us. We hide(or try to hide) from God. And the definition of the word Occult is akin to hidden knowledge, but the bible tells us that all things hidden shall be revealed.

ringo writes:

If there's any reasoning involved, why don't you present it instead of just parroting the apologists?

You seem to assert two things.
1) All apologists are delusional. Which is false.
2) Reasoning involves rejection of apologetics.
yet the definition of apologetics is this:
Wiki writes:

The term apologetics derives from the Ancient Greek word apologia (ἀπολογία).[1] In the Classical Greek legal system, the prosecution delivered the kategoria (κατηγορία), the accusation or charge, and the defendant replied with an apologia, the defence.[5] The apologia was a formal speech or explanation to reply to and rebut the charges. A famous example is Socrates' Apologia defense, as chronicled in Plato's Apology.

In the Koine Greek of the New Testament, the Apostle Paul employs the term apologia in his trial speech to Festus and Agrippa when he says "I make my defense" in Acts 26:2.[6] A cognate form appears in Paul's Letter to the Philippians as he is "defending the gospel" in Philippians 1:7,[7] and in "giving an answer" in 1 Peter 3:15.[8]

Although the term apologetics has Western, primarily Christian origins and is most frequently associated with the defense of Christianity, the term is sometimes used referring to the defense of any religion in formal debate involving religion.

Thus, reasoning need not involve rejection of apologetics.

ringo writes:

Polly want a cracker?

Yes, and I believe I will partake of Holy Communion and have some wine as well...symbolic of the sacrifice my Lord made for me.
Polly wanna eat crow? Or perhaps choke on some manna? (all jokes aside, I approach these debates prayerfully). You are a worthy debater.
ringo writes:

As far as I know, we have no definitive evidence for ANY "uncaused cause". That's not an excuse for you to make one up.

From your definition that evidence must be objective, we do not yet have objective evidence that God is real. We DO have a way to prove this provided you are willing to give up everything you thought was truth and place it on the altar. Or does that scare you?

ringo writes:

How would you go about measuring wisdom?

Good question, ringo. I may need time to think about it.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:37 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14141
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 56 of 103 (877639)
06-19-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
06-19-2020 12:05 PM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
ringo writes:

I have pointed out many times how nonsensical your beliefs are. For just one example, the idea that God sent his "son" (himself) so that we could kill him and only then could he forgive us.

1) Why did we kill him?
2)Genesis 22:1-19

1 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.

9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place, “The LORD will provide”;b as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”c

15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 57 of 103 (877641)
06-19-2020 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
06-19-2020 12:20 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:

Only one of them does pay out. And its not a matter of paying out...its a matter of Creating what we know as reality. God created all seen and unseen through Jesus Christ. Jesus is alive today. This *is* reality.


It's mindless blather.

Phat writes:

God does not hide from us. We hide(or try to hide) from God.


Bullshit. You've said many times that God wants us to believe in Him by faith and not by evidence. Holding back the evidence is hiding.

Phat writes:

All apologists are delusional. Which is false.


Show us that it's false.

Phat writes:

Thus, reasoning need not involve rejection of apologetics.


I didn't say it "needs to". I said it usually does.

Phat writes:

We DO have a way to prove this provided you are willing to give up everything you thought was truth and place it on the altar.


That's what I'm challenging YOU to do.

You seem to forget that I've already done that. I gave up the same beliefs that you have.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 12:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 4:01 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 58 of 103 (877643)
06-19-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
06-19-2020 12:28 PM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
Phat writes:

Why did we kill him?


According to the story, the Jews didn't like Him claiming to be God.

What does that have to do with my point? The sensible plan would have been for God to just forgive us.

Phat writes:

Genesis 22:1-19


Again, what's your point?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 12:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
a servant of Christ
Member
Posts: 1747
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 59 of 103 (877939)
06-23-2020 2:53 PM


hey these guys want evidence

they don't want the our lady of Guadalupe image

or the shroud of turin

or bodies not decomposing

or suns dancing in the sky

they definitely don't want weeping paintings and statues

apparitions appearing to young children

they don't want eucharists bleeding in cups


Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 06-23-2020 3:23 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
 Message 61 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2020 6:45 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 06-23-2020 7:47 PM a servant of Christ has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8409
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 60 of 103 (877943)
06-23-2020 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by a servant of Christ
06-23-2020 2:53 PM


servant writes:

hey these guys want evidence
they don't want the our lady of Guadalupe image

or the shroud of turin

or bodies not decomposing

or suns dancing in the sky

they definitely don't want weeping paintings and statues

apparitions appearing to young children

they don't want eucharists bleeding in cups

"There's a sucker born every minute."--PT Barnum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-23-2020 2:53 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
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