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Author Topic:   Broken Thinking Skills & Pointless Discussion
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4365
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 46 of 65 (882225)
09-15-2020 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
09-15-2020 12:55 PM


Re: wRe: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
That show is on RetroTV on Saturdays just before the original Dragnet (ie, from the early 50's -- I've also been catching the Dragnet radio show on Sirius XM where they keep referring to Joe Friday going to his mother's for dinner). Maybe I need to be watching The Beverly Hillbillies too.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4007
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 47 of 65 (882256)
09-16-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Trump won
09-15-2020 9:37 AM


Re: wRe: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
No.

That is a very silly thing to do, and it's very silly of you to suggest that any of it is true.


This message is a reply to:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 580
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 48 of 65 (882340)
09-18-2020 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Trump won
09-15-2020 9:37 AM


Will the true Creator please step forward.
youwerecreatedbyTh writes:

“when u get up in the mrning i want you to look in the mirror and say
Thor did not create me
Thor does not exist
that is the definition of mental illness
the creation telling his creator he is not there”

There, I fixed it for you. Your welcome.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 65 (882345)
09-18-2020 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AnswersInGenitals
09-18-2020 2:43 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
The ongoing problem with this line of thinking is relativism regarding "gods". There is only One. You all cant understand how its not the same for everybody, but we do in fact have created "gods" in our minds. Some of us have found the right one...the only One. Of course we will never prove it to you skeptics. Perhaps you would do well to be on the lookout yourselves for evidence...dont challenge us to provide you with ours. (yes, it is subjective) If you are honest, you should realize that if One God exists and became human in order to relate to humans, you first have to even want to know this God. If you dont, God Himself cant/wont help you. Which for some of you is fine. Keep on keeping on, but some day you will remember your decisions.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 09-18-2020 2:43 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2020 4:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2020 4:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2020 4:30 PM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5404
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 50 of 65 (882347)
09-18-2020 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
09-18-2020 3:51 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
The ongoing problem with this line of thinking is relativism regarding "gods". There is only One.

No there isn't.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 09-18-2020 3:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7987
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 51 of 65 (882348)
09-18-2020 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
09-18-2020 3:51 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
Phat writes:

… but some day you will remember your decisions.

And it always ends with this threat.

Get a life Phat, just get a bloody life; this is the only one you get, for god's sake get off your knees and do something useful with it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 09-18-2020 3:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33010
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 52 of 65 (882349)
09-18-2020 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
09-18-2020 3:51 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
Phat, Phat, Phat!

Phat writes:

If you are honest, you should realize that if One God exists and became human in order to relate to humans, you first have to even want to know this God.

Phat, there have been a brazillion different Gods that became human not just in order to relate to humans but to have sex with humans and fight with humans and party with humans and sleep with humans and hunt with humans and ...

Phat, there is nothing unusual or unique about the stories told about Jesus.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you would do well to be on the lookout yourselves for evidence...dont challenge us to provide you with ours.

What makes you think that other's don't look for evidence and in fact millions find the same subjective stuff you've found but that show that Allah or Coyote or Ganesh or every other real true god ever discussed is the One True God.

You need to peovide either evidence or at least reasoned argument to support the god you created and market.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2020 6:55 PM jar has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16624
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 53 of 65 (882350)
09-18-2020 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
09-18-2020 3:51 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
quote:
The ongoing problem with this line of thinking is relativism regarding "gods". There is only One. You all cant understand how its not the same for everybody, but we do in fact have created "gods" in our minds. Some of us have found the right one...the only One.

Plenty of people think that, and they disagree on which the “right one” is. Which should be a warning.

quote:
Of course we will never prove it to you skeptics.

Which is another warning sign. Certainly it is within a God’s power to provide objective evidence. People even claim that God has done it - but the evidence always turns out to be lacking - or worse.
(I’m thinking of Cedre’s fake prophet here).

quote:
If you are honest, you should realize that if One God exists and became human in order to relate to humans, you first have to even want to know this God.

If God wants to relate to us, and if God knows us, then surely he could at least manage to introduce himself. This is another big red flag. Why should I want to know somebody I have no knowledge of at all? Somebody who - as far as I can tell - doesn’t even exist. It’s never going to get past intellectual curiosity (at this stage - when I was young and believed it was different, but God never showed up even then).

quote:
If you dont, God Himself cant/wont help you.

Obviously this just means won’t. So much for God’s love.

quote:
Keep on keeping on, but some day you will remember your decisions.

There is no decision involved. I can’t decide to want something that I really don’t understand. And you giving a very negative view of God doesn’t help. Although I guess that may be because you don’t know God at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 09-18-2020 3:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 10-04-2020 8:28 AM PaulK has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5404
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 54 of 65 (882355)
09-18-2020 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
09-18-2020 4:30 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
You need to provide either evidence or at least reasoned argument to support the god you created and market.

No, no, no, jar!

He needs to abandon the premise altogether.

Take up knitting. Chew gum. Something.

Anything but a god concept.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 09-18-2020 4:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 09-18-2020 7:27 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33010
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 55 of 65 (882358)
09-18-2020 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by AZPaul3
09-18-2020 6:55 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
I don't see any issue that would require giving up a god concept. After all, like Phat, I believe that there is a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2020 6:55 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5404
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 56 of 65 (882361)
09-18-2020 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
09-18-2020 7:27 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
I know.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 09-18-2020 7:27 PM jar has not yet responded

  
driewerf
Junior Member
Posts: 18
Joined: 08-14-2010


Message 57 of 65 (882478)
09-24-2020 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by mike the wiz
09-14-2020 5:55 PM


quote:
To anyone actually willing to read the evolution-fairytale forum, like this debate board it is perhaps past it's best days. Perhaps Percy's theory of social media taking over peoples' interests is what is to blame.

But I would ask people to ACTUALLY READ EFF forum and READ what I specifically say rather than reading your report on it which comes across as 100% rhetorical spin.



I have done so. I have read different of your "essays" in the past. Phrase by phrase, line by line. You build your cases on severely flawed premisses and your conclusions don't even follow logically from these flawed premisses.

really, your writings don't stand a close scrutiny.
Some of you favorite ways of avoiding scrutiny is dodging questions and setting up smoke screens of word salad, just to hide the fact that you don't answer your interlocutor's remarks, questions etc.
On top of that you regularly distort your interlocutor's views and statements, even make up quotes out of nothing.

An example of MtW distorting the view of his interlocutor:
Volcanic Island Chains

More recently, MtW derailing a thread at his first post in that thread
the bible predicts
Her more dodging from Mike
Artificial Intelligence Is Only Simulation&
He cant even answer the first question of a thread he starts and derails it at the first critical question.

Edited by driewerf, : No reason given.

Edited by driewerf, : No reason given.


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7987
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 58 of 65 (882663)
10-04-2020 5:22 AM


I watched an old discussion between Richard Dawkins and Wendy White a creationist. I wanted to see if I could work out what was happening because it seems to show every form of broken thinking that there is. (Plus pointless discussions.)

Dawkins was trying very hard to get her to think about what he was saying, but she wouldn't or couldn't or both. I think mostly she didn't know how. Her thinking was all over the place, she had a lot of statements about her position and beliefs of course, and she also had a bunch of disconnected rehearsed rebuttals - a defensive shield of learnt but not understood assertions and 100 year old frauds that she used to fend off Dawkins' arguments.

To be fair to her, she was being filmed and being spoken to by someone she probably thought was the antichrist, her shields were fully up. Even so, it was a pretty complete demonstration of uncritical thinking; with all the faux logic, diversionary behaviour, false 'facts' and inability to reason. She constantly changes the subject when confronted with a fact or position she didn't like and when all else failed accused Dawkins of ad hominem. Dawkins can be a bit of an arse at times but you could see him holding himself back and really trying to communicate with her.

Like all fundie creationists she equates evolution with atheism and atheism with evil, to her they obviously all seem to be the same thing and all merge into one in her mind. The fact that most of the Christian churches accept evolution doesn't change anything for her.

She thinks that if evolution was true then we would become communists or nazis - or be forced to behave like them. It was a very strong association in her mind and although Dawkins said many times that he completely agreed with her that society run along evolutionay lines would be revolting she simply can't get that people have evolved beyond the purely animal and no longer behave solely on instinct and evolutionary lines. Somehow she seems to think that if evolution was a fact we'd all have to behave like animals.

There were lots of things that amazed me but the one that really got me was when she told Richard Dawkins - Fellow of the Royal Society, emeritus fellow of New College Oxford and University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science, a world famous evolutionary biologist - that there was no evidence for evolution, just sketches and models.

When Dawkins pointed out that that just wasn't true, that the evidence is in all the museums of the world she just has to go look at it, she said that she had and it wasn't there - just sketches and models! Denying facts is the hardest part of all this. How the facts are interpreted is different to denying the existence of the facts themselves.

She has no qualifications in science but can tell a world-class evolutionary biologist that fossils don't exist. It's this amazing arrogance that gets me. Behind her defensive bluster is a belief that she feels is threatened by discoveries of science and no amount of evidence and logic will shake that. It's very strange; she has no doubt that she's right about things that she is just totally wrong about.

Full version

Highly edited short version


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-04-2020 8:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 65 (882665)
10-04-2020 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tangle
10-04-2020 5:22 AM


Un-Critical Thinking
I watched the 2nd video(the edited highlights) and can see your point. (I think) Though I'm quite sure that much of my thought process is also "broken" and uncritical. I know that I will never "throw God away" as jar suggests, yet am learning why I fall on this side of the fence rather than on Richard Dawkins side.

I watched an old discussion between Richard Dawkins and Wendy White a creationist.
I think there is a basic difference between a Biblical Creationist and a Cosmological Creationist,as I claim to be.
Tangle writes:

Like all fundie creationists she equates evolution with atheism and atheism with evil, to her they obviously all seem to be the same thing and all merge into one in her mind. The fact that most of the Christian churches accept evolution doesn't change anything for her.

By "most of the Christian Churches" you are likely referring to the Roman Catholic position which fully accepts Evolutioon as a viable concept. Im quite sure that most all Episcopal Churches would agree and that only thew modern day evangelical fundamentalists would put up much of a fuss.

Were I to categorize myself, I would say that I am more of a charismatic than anything else. I have no problem with Biological Evolution on earth as a valid and evidenced method to explain origins here. This puts me firmly in a different camp than Mike The Wiz or our indefinitely suspended member Faith as well as many of the church people whom I know who otherwise believe in the supernatural and in some of the un-evidenced beliefs that I do. All I know is that for me personally, I could never even conceive of being an atheist.So I'm at odds with both camps.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2020 5:22 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2020 8:49 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 63 by jar, posted 10-04-2020 9:43 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 65 (882666)
10-04-2020 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by PaulK
09-18-2020 4:30 PM


Re: Will the true Creator please step forward.
PaulK writes:

There is no decision involved. I can’t decide to want something that I really don’t understand. And you giving a very negative view of God doesn’t help. Although I guess that may be because you don’t know God at all.

Ouch. That hurt, but I will take it as a loving rebuke. One question, though. If you cant decide to want something that you really dont understand, why do you self identify as an atheist rather than an agnostic?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2020 4:30 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2020 9:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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