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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 160 of 303 (324949)
06-22-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 4:22 AM


Would you catagorize the ability to choose ones path freely as a social skill that is essential?
If by free you mean: #2 Free Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
or in other words - independent of all factors - then I dont think this even exists.
The concept of free will is equally as non essential as the concept of soul.
I agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-22-2006 4:22 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-22-2006 10:40 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 161 of 303 (324951)
06-22-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 1:40 PM


Rape happens all the time in all species. What is social about it?
1) I wouldnt say 'all species', only the ones capable of agreeing to have sex.
2) Rape is a social phenomena - thats whats so social about it (definition of 'social' below).
The concept of social itself. Explain this better.
Social Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
#4, also take a look at 'social Darwinism'.
or maybe this:
Social - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-22-2006 1:40 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 174 of 303 (325366)
06-23-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 10:40 PM


What is "I" The concept of "I" is equally as non essential as both free will and soul.
Not really, I think the noun is what your looking for:
I Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Self Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
What is an explanation for the mechanism of this interaction taking place?
I dont know what that means.
I am trying to understand what I am experiencing.
You cant. You can only experience your understanding - I'm sorry if that was a bit poetic, I'll explain - in order to understand something you must experience it (there is no, as far as I know an understanding of the world independent of experience) therefore by trying to understand something (by experiencing it) you inevitably affect it and thus recive an "incorrect" (very tentatively) understanding of it.
I understand the links the interaction led to. However they are from other interactions. I am interested in understanding this one and the nature of what it is.
This is very vague...try to focus on one aspect and choose your words as they are defined - or else I will not know what you mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-22-2006 10:40 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-23-2006 3:11 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 176 of 303 (325599)
06-24-2006 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-23-2006 3:11 PM


The concept of "I" as "self" is also not neccessary as soul or free will.
Assertions.Please provide the logic behind it.
As I see it the sense of self is crucial in order to understand the relationships between yourself and the outside world, enabling you to consiencly change your actions in order to better your life and thus survive and procreate and pass on you "self-conscience"-genes.
What is this I am experiencing?
As I stated - you can only answer this question by experiencing the world - because thats really the only tool you have (AKA science).
The nature of this experience is very unclear.
I'm not sure what you mean by "unclear".
I am apparently interacting with myself
You cant interact with yourself (maybe you can intraact ) . The only thing you can do is derive the properties of what you are perceiving through honest (I'll explain) interaction.
Whet I say honest I dont mean 'without bias', I mean with minimal bias.
The experienced has led me to links.
very vague.
I am attempting to understand the nature of what I am interacting with.
I dont understand what you mean by 'nature' here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-23-2006 3:11 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-24-2006 1:35 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 179 of 303 (326026)
06-25-2006 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-24-2006 1:35 PM


This is kalimero - or as he is in france "calimero"
I am very unclear on this. The nature of the experience of kalimero has not made itself clear to me. Anything I have encountered has been quite vague.
Your not making any sense.
I am interacting with myself now.
Thats not even an arguement.
science defines all experience? What a foolish thought. I have disreguarded this notion.
What does that mean?!? All I said was that the exploration of the world aroud you and a logical derivation of how it works through this exploration is called science.
I am experiencing genes.
You cant experience genes (unless under a microscope) - you can experience their expressions, which are not nesseserily influenced completely by the genes. What you experience is a combination of many different influences.
I see no reason for the concept of "I" or "self" to explain genes.
It doesnt have to. Though I see no reason why genes cant explain "self".
I am a soul having an encounter with kalimero genes.
What a foolish thought.
Really?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-24-2006 1:35 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Ben!, posted 06-25-2006 6:27 AM kalimero has replied
 Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 3:38 AM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 181 of 303 (326136)
06-25-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Ben!
06-25-2006 6:27 AM


What is the fundamental difference between seeing genes under a microscope and "experiencing their expressions"?
The microscope stuff was a joke (sorry), and a bad one too.
When I said "experience their expressions" I meant the parts of a living organism that are determened by genes (every part to a degree obviously), that includes the genes of the person experiencing the experience - and the way that person experiences is also a result of his genetic makeup.
I see a reason why: genes are too low-level to adequately explain "self", just like quantum electrodynamics is too low-level to adequately explain the motion of grasses when a wind blows through a plain.
I see your point. But I do think that the way people experience the world is at partialy determened by their genes and so hypotheticaly you can partialy (I left that out for some reason) explain perseption by genetics. Just like you can partialy explain interactions in gases by: PV=nRT, but that is by no means enough - its just idealizing the situation. From there you can add more variables to make your hypothasis more accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Ben!, posted 06-25-2006 6:27 AM Ben! has not replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 184 of 303 (326316)
06-26-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-26-2006 3:38 AM


Since "self" has no explanation and no physical proof...
Really? It has no proof, unlike "soul"?!?
definition of self (noun):
Self Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
testing for recognition:
Mirror test - Wikipedia
evidence of the functionality of 'self':
Page has gone | New Scientist
...we might as well say that genes explain fairies, gnomes, elves and a host of other non physical things.
Not to imply that 'self' is "non physical" - just because you explain one "non physical" thing doesnt mean you explain them all.
I dont think that there is even such a thing as "non physical" - mthamatics might be abstract but it has a physical basis.
So the interaction of the kalimero that I am experiencing is the expression of influenced genes.
Yes but not only genes.
Kalimero is expression?
Kalimero is an expression - of genes and many more things.
I am experiencing the expression kalimero?
Yes, nice to meet you.
This experience is confusing. What is Kalimero?
I am Kalimero. I = self = what I said above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 3:38 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 1:06 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 188 of 303 (326477)
06-26-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-26-2006 1:06 PM


You do understand that this is the science forum?
You should try to base your arguement on evidence or at least some kind of logic I can debate.
4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
"Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration."
So I will ask again. What is a kalimero?
"Avoid bare assertions."
This is what twice_baked_taters is:
I am not a part of a person. I am not a cause. I am me. The soul. I am the possessor of all aspects of me. I am not the sum of my parts nor can I be properly identified by individual aspects of me. I experience being a person. This person the Kalimero experiences is a reflection of me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-26-2006 1:06 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-04-2006 11:20 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 190 of 303 (328885)
07-05-2006 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-04-2006 11:20 PM


Kalimero am I, I am my self. I have provided the definition for these.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-04-2006 11:20 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 12:19 AM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 192 of 303 (329355)
07-06-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-06-2006 12:19 AM


I am a soul.
Assertions! please provide evidence.
What are you?
That is a very general question - hard to answer, but I think I'll try:
I am the product of interactions between a comlex of neurons.
Consciousness - Wikipedia
Take a look at the 'Cognitive Neuroscience' section.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 12:19 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 8:28 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 195 of 303 (329643)
07-07-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-06-2006 8:28 PM


I am the evidence.
You are evidence?!?! please explain how this prooves a sole.
I see. Kalimero is a product
I am experiencing a product.
Yes - whats your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-06-2006 8:28 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-07-2006 8:19 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 202 of 303 (329839)
07-08-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-07-2006 8:19 PM


I now understand I have been attempting to interact with a product.
And YOU are not a product? (of evolution, of neural connections...)
What evidence do you have to support this claim (a soul)? and this time bring objective evidence - remember this is the science forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-07-2006 8:19 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 12:31 PM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 204 of 303 (329881)
07-08-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-08-2006 12:31 PM


No. I am much more than the limited view through the tiny window you choose to peer.
You mean the tiny window called science (tested and reviewed), as opposed to your untested, unfalsafiable, unrewiewed, religously dogmatic opinion (its an opinion because of the above).
I am well aware of the dogma attatched to science.
How exactly can a method that embraces critical thinking and peer review, and puts evidence before opinion, be dogmatic.
Objective evidence is a falicy. All evidence must be interpreted.
I agree that there is not such thing as completely objective evidence, science is tentative because of this, that doesnt mean you dont have to present evidence but insted be ready to be peer reviewed until you hypothiesis dies a sudden death.
This topic was misplaced with good intention, never the less it was not correctly catagorized.
No kidding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 12:31 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 4:00 AM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 206 of 303 (330037)
07-09-2006 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-09-2006 4:00 AM


Who we are can only be explained through creative philosophical expression.
The thing you refer to as a "who" is composed of "what"s (as I have already shown), therefore a "who" can, ultimatly, be explained by (probably) a collective of "what"s. Philosophy has little to do with it.
This is why in our sideline to this topic it could not be comunicated to me that a kalimero is a who.
Enough of this! lets talk definitions. Notice that the word 'who' (definition #1) is a pronoun and therefore comes to replace a noun - an object - a "what" (if you insist):
Who Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Pronoun - Wikipedia
There is no difference between them, except that the pronoun avoids repetitions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 4:00 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 9:54 AM kalimero has replied

kalimero
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 209 of 303 (330081)
07-09-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-09-2006 9:54 AM


Assertions
I have already given you evidence and stated that I did so:
(as I have already shown)
I am just following the logic that is derived from my evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-09-2006 9:54 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-10-2006 7:32 PM kalimero has replied

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