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Author Topic:   Most convincing evidence for creation theory
EltonianJames
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 111
From: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Joined: 07-22-2005


Message 31 of 307 (411635)
07-21-2007 4:43 PM


Did I Say That Out Loud?
Positive evidence for creation is abundant throughout the universe but only for the creationist. The evolutionist can see this same evidence and come to a totally opposite conclusion based on a time plus random mutation equation. One can hardly expect a person with the standard evo point of view to accept that a visible star one million light years from earth was created a mere six thousand years ago. That is simply not a logical conclusion and violates laws of physics, not to mention good old common sense.
Positive evidence for evolution is abundant throughout the universe but only for the evolutionist. The creationist can see this same evidence and come to a totally opposite conclusion based on a creator with a plan for the ages equation. One can hardly expect to convince a creationist that the beauty, complexity and wonder of nature, let alone the undiscovered wonders of the universe, are nothing more than the result of a big bang which occurred due to unknown but totally impersonable factors.
Personally, I do not care for the distinction of creationist or evolutionist. All evolutionists are also creationists and visa versa. Who, or what, the creator is reveals the only meaningful and thought-provoking difference between the two camps. Everything else is just window dressing. Unfortunately, this difference has morphed into an enormous gulf that neither side is interested in bridging.
GOD DID IT!
NOTHING DID IT!
There is no middle ground here and that is most unfortunate. Discussion and debate become pointless when either side becomes so entrenched in positions and ideals that no amount of evidence contrary to those positions and ideals can challenge and stimulate their thought processes . Regardless of which camp holds their favor, without the dual intercourse and exchange of ideas, there can be no gain, real or imagined.
Evidence for creation and evolution?
Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Straggler, posted 07-21-2007 4:57 PM EltonianJames has replied
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 07-21-2007 5:05 PM EltonianJames has replied
 Message 35 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2007 5:14 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 39 by Grizz, posted 07-21-2007 5:31 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2007 6:27 PM EltonianJames has not replied

EltonianJames
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 111
From: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Joined: 07-22-2005


Message 36 of 307 (411643)
07-21-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Straggler
07-21-2007 4:57 PM


Re: Did I Say That Out Loud?
Without a basis for that debate in the form of physical evidence the converstaion can ONLY ever be "window dressing"
Couldn't have said it better myself! Neither camp has ever produced the "physical evidence" of which you speak that would be satisfactory to the opposite camp. Evolutionists have ample evidence to support their position, as do creationists. Evidence is not the problem.
Interpreting that evidence correctly so that the destination acheived is both beneficial and accurate, this is the great challenge with which we are faced. That will most likely never change.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Straggler, posted 07-21-2007 4:57 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2007 5:28 PM EltonianJames has replied
 Message 43 by Straggler, posted 07-21-2007 6:07 PM EltonianJames has not replied

EltonianJames
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 111
From: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Joined: 07-22-2005


Message 38 of 307 (411645)
07-21-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Chiroptera
07-21-2007 5:05 PM


Re: Did I Say That Out Loud?
So, by definition, the evidence is not objective evidence.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Thank you for acknowledging that all evidence presented, whether by evo or creo, is not objective evidence and therefore cannot be used scientifically, though many still try, carving and molding the evidence to fit their pre-conceived concepts and ideas.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 07-21-2007 5:05 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Chiroptera, posted 07-21-2007 6:13 PM EltonianJames has not replied

EltonianJames
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 111
From: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Joined: 07-22-2005


Message 49 of 307 (411662)
07-21-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by bluegenes
07-21-2007 5:28 PM


Re: Did I Say That Out Loud?
Considering the title of the topic, and your view that creationists have ample evidence to support their position, would you like to tell us what that ample evidence is? Or at least, some of it?
I am guessing that you missed the gist of the post or you wouldn't be asking for something which you have most likely already rejected a hundred times in a hundred other forums. A bit disingenous, don't you think? Whether evo or creo, most likely you have already entrenched yourself in a specific camp of thought, a camp you have absolutely no intention of leaving, regardless of which path the evidence is actually leading you down.
Evidence is just that. It can prove nothing, it can only stimulate your mind and each individual is fully capable of following the evidence down the wrong path and that means all of us. Proof I cannot offer you and any evidence presented, whether by myself or another, can and will only be accepted or rejected contingent on personal belief.
To emphasize this point, I offer the following...
Based on the observed rotational speeds of the stars about the center of our own galaxy, "if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless smear of stars instead of its present spiral shape."
At the current rate of erosion from water and winds "it would only take 15 million years to erode all land above sea level," depositing it into the ocean.
At the current rate of sedimentation, the accumulation of sedimentation from the continents "implies that the present ocean floors have existed less than 15 million years." Fossil evidence supports the current rate of sedimentation.
Assuming that the oceans had no salt to start with, at the current rates of sodium entering and leaving the oceans, the oceans would have accumulated their present amount in less than 42 million years. Using the most generous allowances for evolutionary scenarios, still gives a maximum possible age for the oceans of only 62 million years.
The earth's magnetic field energy has been decaying at a factor of 2.7 over the past 1,000 years. At this current decay rate, the earth could not be greater than 10,000 years old.
Many erect fossil trees in Nova Scotia were found "throughout 2,500 feet of geologic strata, penetrating 20 geologic horizons. These trees had to have been buried faster than it took them to decay. This implies that the entire formation was deposited in less than a few years."
"Many strata are too tightly bent. In many mountainous areas, strata thousands of feet thick are bent and folded into hairpin shapes. The conventional geologic timescale says these formations were deeply buried and solidified for hundreds of millions of years before they were bent. Yet the folding occurred without cracking, with radii so small that the entire formation had to be still wet and unsolidified when the bending occurred. This implies that the folding occurred less than thousands of years after deposition."
All naturally-occurring families of radioactive elements generate Helium (in the form of an alpha particle) as they decay. Taking into account the amount of helium flowing into and out of the atmosphere, "it would take less than 2 million years to accumulate the small amount of helium in the air today."
"Helium produced by radioactive decay in deep, hot rocks has not had time to escape. Though the rocks are supposed to be billions of years old, their helium retention suggest an age much less than millions of years."
There are not enough stone-age skeletons to account for the approximately 4 billion Neanderthal and Cro-magnon people that evolutionary anthropologists say lived during the 100,000 years of the stone age. "Yet only a few thousand skeletons have been found implying that the stone age was much shorter, a few hundred years in many areas."
Evidence for Creation
I have not conversed with any evo who has not already seen and rejected the above. If the evidence does not support the particular camp to which we belong, we will reject that evidence or mold it until if fits nicely into our pre-conceived notions of life and how it came to be.
It is understandable and acceptable that evidence contrary to one position can and often does give greater credence to an opposing position. This happens all the time in law enforcement. Evos and creos are notorious for rejecting out of hand any evidence that contradicts their preferred position.
This forum has not shown itself to behave any differently, nor would I expect it to. The opposing camps have become far too polarized. Neither camp has evidenced that they openly accept new concepts and ideas if same contradicts long held beliefs.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2007 5:28 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Straggler, posted 07-21-2007 6:41 PM EltonianJames has replied
 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-21-2007 6:45 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2007 6:48 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 56 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2007 7:15 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 60 by Coragyps, posted 07-21-2007 7:40 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 61 by RAZD, posted 07-21-2007 7:51 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 64 by iceage, posted 07-21-2007 9:00 PM EltonianJames has not replied

EltonianJames
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 111
From: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Joined: 07-22-2005


Message 55 of 307 (411670)
07-21-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Straggler
07-21-2007 6:41 PM


Re: Hurrah! Evidence (Well.....)
Which of your evidences listed do you consider to be the most compelling?
My personal opinion does not matter. Only the evidence matters, and as we have seen over the last several decades, if the evidence does not lead where one wants to go...reject it or reevaluate it until it fits where one needs it to fit.
How does this chosen line of evidence fare in terms of prediction and independent corroboration?
Depends on the camp examining the evidence, now doesn't it.
Do you even accept that prediction and independent corroboration are useful criteria for assessing the validity of a theory/interpretation?
Useful yes...last word no.
Consider this. A honeycomb is a facinating structure and no one can deny the fact that the design is an extremely intelligent one. The design of the honeycomb is not the issue...the designer is. This honeycomb is a marvelous example of evidence for intelligent design, but only for the creationist. The evolutionist may accept the fact that the design is an intelligent one but this will not bring them any closer to acknowledging the possibility of an "Intelligent Designer" or a "Creator" that is anything beyond the time/random mutation equation.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Straggler, posted 07-21-2007 6:41 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2007 7:29 PM EltonianJames has not replied
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 07-22-2007 4:34 AM EltonianJames has not replied

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