Big Bang Problem

And bathtubs? I know toilets have ports to direct the water in a certain direction of swirl, but how would bathtubs do this?I've never heard the toilet version of this story, only the bathtub version. EvC Forum has members scattered about the globe, so we should be able to put to rest once and for all whether this is myth or not. Everybody run some water in a bathtub with the drain closed. Once the water is quiet, open the drain. Report here which direction the water swirls down the drain, and whether you're northern or southern hemisphere. Equator and near-equator residents needn't bother. Drop a piece of thread or something in the water and watch it go down the drain to be sure you've observed the direction correctly.--Percy

Some years ago I listened to an interview on CBC's "Quirks and Quarks" science show.Some australian researchers actually conducted this experiment. (now this is all by fuzzy memory and I can't point you at a refrence).They used a large, circular "tub" (tank actuallly) a couple of meters across.They went to great lengths and days to allow it to stablize. Now the punch line -- lol --- I can't remember if they saw the effect or not.However, what I do remember is that you will not see it in a bathtub. The residual 'swirl' is huge compared to the coreolis force and will overwhelm it. It takes extraordinary lengths and a symmetrical tank to give any chance at all of the effect appearing. However there is a force there and it can happen at some scale. You have to be very very careful in how the 'plug' is removed or this will introduce a swirl. This can not, apparently, be controled in a normal bathtub.

Then perhaps we should move from toilets to hurricanes and tornadoes. Or how about water currents in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. They do have opposite spin in the different hemispheres. Or even the bands on Jupiter that spin in different directions. If creationists are so worried about opposite spin, why did they focus on planets when there are more examples other than the planets? Of course, you have to take the intended audience into consideration. I guess as long as you start any scientific discussion with "And this shows how the Big Bang is impossible" anything that follows will be taken as the truth.[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 03-25-2004]

ahahahaaaa global experiment -- I love it.seriously thoughthe outlet is offcenter thus disrupting the swirl action until it is nearly empty.then you get to random effects: random currents (unless left until long after the 'trouble and strife' has screamed about access), hair, deformities in the drain. etc

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

Coriolis is well known in major currents -- it has to do with the cold water escalator that may usher in the next cold age on the back of global warming.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

The coriolas effect only really has an impact on large areas due to the nature of how it is caused. Since rotational speed around the earth axis is faster than at higher or lower latitudes, air, water, ect, as they travel away from the equater either due north or south ( or at other angles, but right angles just simplifies the problem), the realitive velocity around the axis remains constant, while the speed of the earth around the axis decreases the further away you go. The realitive velocity difference is what causes the effect. A toilet or bathtube are so small that there is virtually no noticable effect. Generally, even the form of the bowl or tube, without any jets, will have a greater, often orders of magnitude greater, effect than the coriolos effect.

The archetypal Coriolis experiment was done by Ascher Shapiro at MIT in 1962. I saw the very tub in which he did the experiments, in the basement of Building 5, in 1966.The effect exists, and can be seen, but is easily swamped by other effects. Do bathtubs drain counterclockwise in the Northern Hemisphere?

If I remember correctly, the conditions of the tub and the effects on it had to be greatly minimized, and it was slowly drained over the quite some time to generate teh effect. In lab conditions, it is reproducible (barely), but for your typical toilet or bathtub, you will never see the actual effect.

I would think that to demonstrate the effect as purely as possible would mean using a large round tank with the water just left in it for an extended time. Draining it introduces a variable that is not needed.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

i've got a couple of questions,first off, what was it that came togehter into one piont in the universe? and y did it come to a single piont?and then, y did it start spinning?and y did it explode?

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and then, y did it start spinning?

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and y did it explode?

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First, there is absolutely no part of the big bang model that says *anything* about spinning. Not sure where you got that idea. Maybe a reference?Why space expands is not exactly known. It is something we observe that it *does*, and we can determine *how*, but we can't say *why* it does it like this and not differently.

ok so do we have any proof of the big bang theory?

There are several ways to test it, yes. Experiments and observations has been done that shows that what the big bang model says about the universe is correct.Some examples is the discovery of the background microwave radiation that was predicted by the model and later observered. Other things includes how the development of stars and such should look like when we observe 'deep' into the universe.

OK Teen, I hope you dont' feel that I am picking on you with all my replies, but you did start your own thread on this topic. My suggestion is to stick to one thread at a time to minimize frustration. Besides there is no need for the same issues to be covered in numerous threads at the same time. Lets all help protect Percy's bandwidth just a little?

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

The whole big bang thing and cosmology is very hard to get your head around.It will work ok if you just decide that God kicked the whole universe off about 13.7 billion years ago and leave it at that. After you've dealt with less head hurting things and get some more education in science and math you might want to return to all of this.Meanwhile, you might want to look into the age of the earth. If you can't accept an earth of 4.5 billion years you are NEVER going to get comfortable with a 13.7 billion year old universe that expanded from a small volume in a way that only the math can properly describe.