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Author Topic:   why creation "science" isn't science
Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 365 (2383)
01-18-2002 10:15 AM


This arguement really bugs me.
Why is it Creationists are the only group of people that let their pre-determined ideas affect their research or interpretation of the facts?
My belief is that scientists obtain the same flaw as Creationists. I believe most scientists accept evolution with little doubt and information they find is interpreted according to the evolutionary outline.
You may disagree with me, as you are entitled to. However, nobody can offer me any proof that scientists are free from bias.

Replies to this message:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 365 (2416)
01-18-2002 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by lbhandli
01-18-2002 2:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by lbhandli:
No one claims scientists are free of bias. However, a scientist is one who uses the scientific method to reduce that bias and come to reliable and valid conclusions.
I think bias is still apparent in scientists, despite the scientific method. And if any bias is involved, science can not be pure.
Science is not just facts. It is interpretation of the facts. If a bias affects the interpretation, the science is not perfect. I think Evolutionists and Creationists are equally guilty of letting bias affect interpretation.
By the way TrueCreation, my question:
"Why is it Creationists are the only group of people that let their pre-determined ideas affect their research or interpretation of the facts?"
My question was not meant that way. I should of said,
"Why is it Creationists are CONSIDERED the only group of people that let their pre-determined ideas affect their research or interpretation of the facts?"
Our viewpoints are relatively similar on the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by lbhandli, posted 01-18-2002 2:40 PM lbhandli has replied

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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 365 (2470)
01-19-2002 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by nator
01-19-2002 10:19 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Here are other theories which scientists accept with little doubt:
The Germ Theory of Disease
The Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System
The Atomic Theory of Matter

All of these theories are much easier to prove using physical knowledge. Is it possible these theories are wrong? Yes, without a doubt. However, it does not seem likely to me.
Evolution (in my opinion) differs from these because it does not have enough evidence to support it. The fact that scientists accept it does not really matter when it comes to actual knowledge. It is my OPINION that evolution does not have enough facts to support it. This is because the evidence for evolution is obtained mostly from inferences from the past.
Anyways, this whole post is besides my point. My point is that scientists are very likely to let bias affect their interpretation of the facts. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 365 (2522)
01-20-2002 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by LudvanB
01-19-2002 8:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by LudvanB:

They test their theories,making every attempt to knock them down and inviting anyone to do the same.
[This message has been edited by LudvanB, 01-19-2002]

Oh really? Now that I think about it you're right. Scientists LOVE to have their theories disproved!
May I add that rarely (or never) does the existence of evolution come into question among scientists.

This message is a reply to:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 365 (2523)
01-20-2002 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by LudvanB
01-19-2002 10:09 PM


quote:
Originally posted by LudvanB:

Science is a self correcting thing. How many time have we seen Creationists put in question the fundamental beliefs in the Bible of other Creationists?

Hypocritical statement. Scientists never question whether or not evolution occured, they only question HOW it occured.
If you can show me that I'm wrong I will be very suprised.

This message is a reply to:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 365 (2527)
01-20-2002 3:53 PM


You are right Percipient. I too acknowledge the ability for a species to change slightly over time.
However, the question of whether or not there is a change in allelic frequency is unimportant. This is because it is easy to see why that part of the theory of evolution is true. But just because it is stupid to deny a certain concept of evolution does not mean at all that evolution on a whole is the best theory. For example, it would be ridiculous for me to deny natural selection, but it is perfectly intelligent for me to deny that natural selection (put together with other concepts of biology) does not cause whole-scale evolution.

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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 365 (2528)
01-20-2002 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by edge
01-20-2002 1:34 PM


quote:
Originally posted by edge:
Besides, evolution is tested virtually every day. The point is that it works virtually everytime.
I respectfully disagree with you. I think certain concepts of evolution are being challenged on a daily basis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by edge, posted 01-20-2002 1:34 PM edge has replied

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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 365 (2536)
01-20-2002 5:10 PM


My point is that CERTAIN CONCEPTS of evolution are being questioned, instead of evolution as a whole.

  
Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 365 (2611)
01-21-2002 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by lbhandli
01-21-2002 1:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by lbhandli:
I'm sorry, I missed the cite to that finding. Please provide
Hey buddy, you need to chill out. TrueCreation shouldn't have to single-handedly find citations for reasons why all of your excuses are invalid. You should simply use logic and common sense.
Logic and common sense tell you that scientists (being man) have flaws. One of the flaws just may include bias. Why is it so hard for you to understand that scientists are likely to be biased?
I openly admit that Creationists are biased (including myself). The fact that most evolutionists pretend that they are unaffected by the temptation of bias only discredits them further.
And I am still unclear as to how the "scientific method" washes clean all of the affects of bias.
I don't think you understand how easy it is to be biased towards evolution. Since most of the evidence scientists have is based on inferences of what occured in the past, it is easy to twist ideas to match your theory. Obviously, Creationists are similarly capable of twisting the facts. Therefore, one must choose which bias to be biased under: the Creationist model or the evolutionists model.
Given current knowledge it seems very respectable to be biased under the Creation model.
By the way TrueCreation: I think you are doing an excellent job debating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by lbhandli, posted 01-21-2002 1:05 PM lbhandli has replied

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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 365 (2649)
01-21-2002 11:48 PM


"No, you need to understand what sort of discussion is occuring. He made a specific claim regarding the finding of a fossil that would be problematic for evolution. I asked for a citation supporting that find. What exactly is unreasonable in asking for that? The claim is one of evidence and therefore logic and common sense are rather hard to use without some evidence to discuss that is nothing more than an assertion at this point."
True, the example I gave you is a poor one. However, if you review your posts you will see that you keep expecting citations and literature from TrueCreation. I simply don't think you should ask so much of him all at one time, as I'm sure this is not the only thread he is posting in.
Besides, I don't think TrueCreation should have to spend alot of time debating in this topic, because I think this argument is one of the weakest and most hypocritical evolutionists have to offer.
You keep saying that Creationists have no real theory because the theory does not have three supposed key features you deem neccesary to consider Creation a theory. Well, perhaps you should step back and decide whether or not evolution is a real theory under your guidelines. This means you must provide:
1. Testable hypotheses
2. Confirming evidence
3. Potential falsifications
I believe you will have trouble meeting requirement number 3. What exactly would falsify evolution?
And for requirement number one, I expect that you have testable hypotheses for nearly all aspects of evolution. This includes the big bang, abiogenesis, and tests that prove (to at least a reasonable degree) that all of the minor changes in nature could lead to the formation of complex creatures (birds, whales, humans, etc.)
After all, if evolution can't meet all of the requirements, it is completely hypocritical to suspect Creation to. I know in your reply to this you will counter this post to a degree that you are satisfied with, but I doubt you will be able to come up with answers that would be considered reasonable under the review of unbiased individuals.
What am I saying? Should we stop studying the "evil" theory of evolution? Of course not. I'm simply saying that scientists should realize that many of the conclusions they make (however reasonable they may be) are outside the realm of traditional science.
"So explain the history and diversity of life on Earth. That is what evolution does. How does creation science do it?"
I'm sorry, but this does not seem to be a very reasonable question.
Creationists explain history and diversity by an almighty God who has extreme power. This almighty God created everything. If you didn't know that then you should be studying up on Creation instead of debating in this topic (whether or not you believe Creation is "real" science.)
However, if you meant by the question that you want Creation to explain the diversity of life by purely natural means, then surely the question can't be serious. Creationists don't think life CAN be explained by purely natural means, which is a perfectly reasonable assumption under current evidence.
"Science relies on observations."
No kidding. The fact that certain (tiny) bits of the theory of evolution can be observed matters little. Besides, most "observed" instances of evolution are definitely compatible with a Creation model. Speciation, mutations, change in allelic frequency, etc. all easily fall under the framework that the universe and it's life is designed.

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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 365 (2670)
01-22-2002 3:58 PM


A creation model is very simple.
An almighty being created the universe, the earth, and life. Soon after, He created man (in his own image.) Man sinned (big suprise) and as a result the almighty being decided to cast the first humans out of the perfect world and into a world in which one must struggle to survive.
That is the world we live in today. The many species God created were created using the DNA code. He created them how he wanted them, with much variability. After the perfect world ended, errors in the code (mutations) began to affect all species. These errors along with the coded variation of species led to the world today in which we find many different species.
The bible is a historical account. It was written by man, but the men were inspired by God. Therefore, the bible is the closest thing to the word of God.
Under this very vague model, one can see easily how mutations, speciation, and change in allelic frequency all fit in easily to the theory.
This model also agrees with another scientific idea in an alternate way. Common descent can easily be exchanged with common designer.
"Abiogenesis on the other hand is really several different theories and no where near as well developed or certain as is biological evolution or the Big Bang."
Abiogenesis is very important. If abiogenesis cannot be explained, neither can life by purely natural means. Besides, as I pointed out earlier, most (if not all) biological concepts fit fine with a Creation model.
I have to go now, I will address your other points later.

Replies to this message:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 365 (2674)
01-22-2002 7:58 PM


"So how does one test this model? What is the evidence of this theory that confirms it? How would one know if it is false? This is a scientific discussion, not a discussion by assertion. Please offer up more than vague assertions?"
The evidence lies mostly in the extreme complexity of life. And for the most part, any evidence against evolution is essentially evidence for Creation. The universe either made itself, was made, or a combination. If the universe was either made or made using methods of itself (combination), then the basic principle that we were created by an intelligent being is correct. Therefore, flaws and huge gaps in evolution are evidence of a creator. Abiogenesis (despite your admittance to this being an important part of evolution) is a great example. Even you admit that Abiogenesis does not have alot of evidence going for it at the current time.
"Assertion--please support it with testable hypotheses, confirming evidence and how it could be falsified."
How about you use common sense instead?
"How so? To make this claim you would have to have a scientific theory that is testable, has confirming evidence and can be falsified. You have not identified such a theory. Please do so. Saying the evidence fits both models is an assertion, you need to support this assertion by providing a scientific theory that does what you assert. To date you, nor anyone else, has been able to."
"Evolution doesn't claim that. It does claim that since the first life we are able to detect, evolution accounts for the history and diversity of life on Earth. How that life started is largely irrelevant to evolution. Abiogenesis, panspermia, divine intervention, intelligent intervention, all could have started life on Earth and not affect the evidence for evolution."
You're fooling yourself. If life wasn't created by natural means then it was created by intelligent means. This intelligent being would likely be God. Unless of course you state that aliens brought first life here. Two problems with that theory:
1. Life would of had to start on some planet at some point in time.
2. The idea that aliens brought the first cell to earth sounds much more like a fairy tale than the story of the bible, in my opinion.
So if one can say that (almost definitely) life did not start by aliens throwing the first cell on our planet, then we can assume beyond reasonable doubt that life had to of been started by an intelligent designer.
"Also, this is a strange statement given that the unifying concept of biology is evolution and yet you seem to think it can be separated from the field on a whim."
What is wrong with that assumption if the evidence fits into my model?
[This message has been edited by Cobra_snake, 01-22-2002]

Replies to this message:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 365 (2676)
01-22-2002 10:19 PM


I am reading through "29 evidences for Macroevolution." I will discuss them in groups. First up:
"One True Polygenic Tree"
#1
"According to the theory of common descent, modern living organisms, with all their incredible differences, are the progeny of one single species in the distant past. In spite of the extensive variation of form and function among organisms, several fundamental criteria characterize all life."
FALSIFICATION: Thousands of new species are discovered yearly, and new DNA and protein sequences are determined daily from previously unexamined species (Wilson 1992, Ch. 8); each and every one is a test of the theory of common descent. Based solely on the theory of common descent and the genetics of known organisms, we strongly predict that we will never find any modern species from known phyla on this Earth with a foreign, non-nucleic acid genetic material.
Well, to tell you the truth, I don't want to falsify this claim because it fits perfectly to a Creation model. I strongly predict that a foreign, non-nucleic acid of genetic material will be found as well. My reason? Common creator, common system of creating. There is no reason to suspect God would stray to far from the near-perfect system of DNA he created when he developed new species.
# 2
"Therefore, since common descent is a genealogical process, common descent should produce organisms that can be organized into objective nested hierarchies."
CONFIRMATION: Most existing species can be organized rather easily in a nested hierarchical classification. This is evident in the use of the Linnaean classification scheme.
FALSIFICATION: It would be very problematic if many species were found that combined characteristics of different nested groupings.
As for the confirmation, I don't find it a big suprise. On a side note, Linneaus was a Christian (which you probably knew).
As for the falsification, firstly I doubt evolutionists would stop considering macroevolution fact if some mammals had wings. Secondly, I don't see why scientists think God would of done it any other way! Anyways, this point is another moot one because it fits a Creation model.
# 3
"If there is one true historical phylogenetic tree which unites all species in an objective genealogy, all separate lines of evidence should converge on the same tree (Penny et al. 1982; Penny et al. 1991). Independently derived phylogenetic trees of all organisms should match each other with a high degree of statistical significance."
FALSIFICATION: In fact, in the absence of common descent or any other reason to suppose that these two types of trees should be similar, the most likely result by far is that they will be radically different. This is precisely why it is possible to falsify the macroevolutionary prediction that independently derived phylogenies should be similar.
The problem with this is that the current tree that evolutionists propose now could easily be replaced by other trees. So if evolutionary assumptions lead to a certain tree, what is to say that these evolutionary assumptions are correct? Therefore, the idea that it can be falsified is not neccesarily true, because any new evidence would cause the tree to change instead of cause scientists to doubt the idea of common descent.
I think you can find alot more at trueorigins.org
# 4
"Any fossilized animals found should conform to the standard phylogenetic tree. If all organisms are united by descent from a common ancestor, then there is one single true historical phylogeny for all organisms, just like there is one single true historical genealogy for any individual human."
CONFIRMATION: In this example, we have found a quite complete set of dinosaur-to-bird transitional fossils with no morphological "gaps" (Sereno 1999), represented by Ceratosaurus, Allosaurus, Sinosauropteryx, Protarchaeopteryx, Caudipteryx, Velociraptor, Archaeopteryx, Confuciusornis, Sinornis, and Columba, among many others (Carroll 1997, pp. 306-323; Sereno 1999). All have the expected possible morphologies, including organisms such as Sinosauropteryx, Protarchaeopteryx, and Caudipteryx which are flightless bipedal dinosaurs with feathers (Chen, Dong et al. 1998; Qiang, Currie et al. 1998). The All About Archaeopteryx FAQ gives a detailed listing of the various characters of Archaeopteryx which are intermediate between reptiles and modern birds.
FALSIFICATION: Any finding of a striking mammal-bird intermediate would be highly inconsistent with common descent. Many other examples of prohibited intermediates can be thought of, based on the standard tree.
First of all, the falsification is not really very good. Even the author admits that a mammal-bird intermediate would be merely "highly inconsistent" with the theory.
Secondly, I find it very odd that Archaeopteryx is the only example with a link. Therefore, one can only assume Archaeopteryx is the best example available. But when I look at the Archaeopteryx, I see fully functional feathers. How did these get there?
Thirdly, I don't see why an intermediate would not be created by an intelligent designer. Archaeopteryx seems like a wonderful creation, and if God made reptiles and birds, why should he be expected to not make an organism that has (fully functional) characteristics of both?
I will add # 5 to my list when I have time.

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by wj, posted 01-23-2002 7:00 AM Cobra_snake has replied
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 365 (2693)
01-23-2002 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by wj
01-23-2002 7:00 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by wj:
This raises some interesting questions for creation and/or design. Why would the designer make some variations of the genetic code for some taxa? Is it intelligent to have slightly different codes operating across taxa? Were the organisms created with the variant codes or did their divergence from the standard genetic code occur after their creaton?
Why would an intelligent designer create a "near perfect" genetic system when, presumably with a little more effort, a perfect genetic system could surely be provided? Does this mean that the capacity for mutation is designed into the genetic system? What would be the purpose of facilitating mutation? To provide variation within species to enable them to be more fit for their environment?
Cobra, you may need to revisit this piece of evidence before charging onto the others.[/B][/QUOTE]
First of all, you are in no position to question the way God made species if in fact he does exist. However, your points are still easily discarded.
I really don't see your point in the first paragraph. Even if genetic code differs slightly, it is still relatively the same. This is not EVIDENCE for a creator, but simply saying that it is EVIDENCE for evolution is completely ridiculous.
Your second point goes nowhere. First of all, you can't prove that a better system than DNA is possible. Besides, it is very likely that the system WAS perfect when God first created life. Mutations occured AFTER the sin of man. And mutations are a good idea given God's position.
Seriously though, don't spend too much time lingering on this one idea. Evolutionists have much more challenging oppositions to creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by wj, posted 01-23-2002 7:00 AM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 365 (2720)
01-24-2002 3:47 PM


Wow, I am finding debating with all of you remarkably similar to banging my head against a brick wall. Every time I make a good point it is countered by "Well you don't really have a theory so there!"
One thing I must clear up here. I don't think you all understand what I am arguing against. My main argument is:
I DON'T THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO EXPLAIN EXISTENCE WITHOUT AN INTELLIGENT DESIGNER.
The ToE I am debating against is the theory that everything made itself. That INCLUDES Abiogenesis, Big Bang, and Biological Evolution. What you must understand is, if God DOES exist, I have no problem with ideas like Abiogenesis and Big Bang. God would be able to supply the miracles required for these theories. So, the explanation of Abiogenesis is important to ME. I am mainly debating against the idea of naturalism.
The bible, while not necessarily giving evidence towards my idea, is cosistent with it. Of course, your argument (whoever next replies) will be "You don't really have a model." This is despite me posting a model earlier:
"An almighty being created the universe, the earth, and life. Soon after, He created man (in his own image.) Man sinned (big suprise) and as a result the almighty being decided to cast the first humans out of the perfect world and into a world in which one must struggle to survive.
That is the world we live in today. The many species God created were created using the DNA code. He created them how he wanted them, with much variability. After the perfect world ended, errors in the code (mutations) began to affect all species. These errors along with the coded variation of species led to the world today in which we find many different species."
I challenge any of you to create (your own) evolutionary model which explains everything from the beginning of time (naturalism). Don't go into details, just a broad overview.
Also, you claim my theory doesn't have the three things you deem necessary to be a theory:
1. Testable hypotheses
2. Confirming evidence
3. Potential falsifications
I must first ask, where did you get these requirements? Secondly, I will ask you to give me answers of how evolution fits these requirements. Giving me a link to the 29 evidences doesn't count. I've already tried to show that the falsifications for the evidences were bogus, but I was not able to get past #4 before you again blasted me with the claim that my model has nothing to do with science. I would like the explanations in your own words.
I will address the other points as soon as I get back. In the meantime, have fun creating your own model for evolution.

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