Source of biblical flood water?

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yeah. must have taken those continents a long time to move, huh? so basically, god doesn't know every possibility pertaining to everything? and he doesn't know which choices we'll make? he has to build insurance policies instead of knowing it'll happen in the first place? exactly. they use it to mean "everything we disagree with." which, as it turns out, is A LOT of stuff. a good dozen or so distinct schools of science. astronomy, geology, paleontology, biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics, logic, etc. evolution does not replace a creator. in fact, evolution is quite open to intelligent input. never heard of purebreed dogs? an intelligent being (us) controls what the dogs breed with. we, essentially, are controlling the evolution of the dogs, intelligently designing them.and yes, that does include drastic changes. dogs like pugs and french bulldogs were intentionally bred that way by humans, from much larger dogs with full snouts. funny, i know some old-age creationists.

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i suggest you come back to REAL reality.

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no, i mean, to do so would change the laws the laws that hold things together. as in, no matter, period. if you wanna insist that god does this stuff, go ahead. but stop making stuff up just to make a RELIGIOUS belief sound SCIENTIFIC.if you can;t justify it with the real world that's not my problem. i think you did, considering it's not in the bible. well, genesis at least. paul is another discussion. still not reading the bible, are we? adam had to be kept away so he wouldn't be, an i'm quoting god now, LIKE GOD. not sinful, LIKE GOD. there is no indication that the tree of knowlegde caused anything but knowledge. god indicates that he'll kill them if they eat of it, but then he doesn't. he just curses them. there's nothing further about death in the text.the indication is that adam and eve were created as mortal being, and would have to eat of the tree of life in order to not be. actually, he got cursed to till the desert. there is no promise of a saviour in genesis. a saviour from what? god? the snake? ohh. a snake. i'm worried! go read the "law prophets and psalms" thread, we've already discussed the "prophesy" of genesis 3. it's not a prophesy, it's a curse to the snake.

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no, i mean, to do so would change the laws the laws that hold things together. as in, no matter, period.

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No, adding the spiritual componet does not do any such thing. When we are in heaven, with our complete bodies, spititual/physical, do you think we will fly apart and explode!? How about the 1500 mile high golden city? No physical only matter, thats for sure, but spiritual/ physical 'matter'. Undisputable. Eternal, undecaying, foreverstuff.

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if you can;t justify it with the real world that's not my problem.

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I can, it will be the real world, this temporary one will forever be gone.

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Adam had to be kept away from the tree of life sfter the fall, so he would not eat of it, and again live forever, in his present sinful state.

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still not reading the bible, are we? adam had to be kept away so he wouldn't be, an i'm quoting god now, LIKE GOD. not sinful, LIKE GOD. there is no indication that the tree of knowlegde caused anything but knowledge

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Ha. And you twell me to read the bible? Haven't you heard of the tree of life there? How God had to put an angel to guard it, so man couln't get to it, and live forever!? The tree of knowledge was a different tree.

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"prophesy" of genesis 3. it's not a prophesy, it's a curse to the snake

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No, you take it any way you want. Notice Cain's sacrifice was rejected, his own works, and not the sacrifice God ordered. One day His Lamb would come, and shed His blood, and die for men. This was set up right from the getgo here, and Jesus was the Lamb of God that died to take away the sin of the world, and restore men to salvation, and eternal life.

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so basically, god doesn't know every possibility pertaining to everything? and he doesn't know which choices we'll make? he has to build insurance policies instead of knowing it'll happen in the first place?

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You make Him sound like some kind of heartless supercomputer, and us, some matrix program! Yes, He transends time and knows how it is going to go, but He has limited His power to operate within the framework of free will. I think this is what drives the devil crazy with envy, that mere little men could be given this great gift.

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Well they do more and faster than continents do.

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yeah. must have taken those continents a long time to move, huh?

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No. Only if we try to stick them all over the planet to try to make it seem to fit with other evidence! Yeah right, 'then it hurried down to the antartic, to pick up the rocks that don't fit, and waltzed back, with a detour to timbuctoo first to pick up more evidence, etc... And heck it was so long ago, who can bother to question it? But, hey, it travelled slowly, for billions of years before the blasted stuff was even created first'!

no. we're talking about what it would take to change the decay rates. you insist that these are subject to change, without side effects. such is impossible.and to imply that something to that extent happened, not only says that god doesn't follow his own rules, but that he's out to trick us. nice guy. perhaps you don't know what undisputable means. also, what the hell are you talking about? no, you're living off in space somewhere. your arguments have nothing to do with either science or the bible. nothing. wow. hi, welcome to reading comprehension. two trees. adam eats one, god gets mad. then god says, "make sure he doesn't eat the other too so he's like me."the implication of that is that adam was mortal to begin with. no, i take it the way it was written. it's not prophesy, it's a CURSE. it's part of a thre-part curse given to adam, eve, and the snake. read the darned book

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you make him sound like he doesn't know what he's doing, a liar, and a cheat. i'm not gonna debate with you until you take a geology class so you even know the first thing about what you're talking about.

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we're talking about what it would take to change the decay rates. you insist that these are subject to change, without side effects. such is impossible.

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Lets get it straight here, no we are not. No change whatsoever in rates. What we are talking about here is no decay rate at all! This process is only something that we have here. Before the split, then, the process going on was aided and abbetted by the spiritual, and the result of the combination was that the process itself then was not one of decay at all. Like if we look at an escalator going down it may have a certain decent rate. Fine. But it wasn't going down at all before, and it was a process sort of going the other way, and leading to the eternal. Take away the spiritual component, and leave the physical only, and you have some of the same materials (just the physical ones) working alone, and now become a decay process.As long as it was just the physical, (since the decay rates came into being), yes, the decay rates were the same. Before this (split, or fall) there was no decay process, so it was not the same or different. It was some other processes altogether different.

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that something to that extent happened, not only says that god doesn't follow his own rules, but that he's out to trick us. nice guy.

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When men freely chose to obey the voice of the enemy of our souls, and eat the forbidden fruit, this triggered the split, don't blame it on God! As I say, we really have this fantastic power of free will. The horrible changes that started then to ensue were not how God wanted it. He did leave it as an option of choice however. Death, and decay, and decay rates entered into the world. Everything was different. They did stsrt to die right then, contrary to the lies of the serpent 'ye shall not SURELY die'. Well it would take about a thousand years almost. So don't make it sound like He changed everything just to trick future evos!!!!

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what the hell are you talking about?

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(about foreverstuff) Well in the merged universe things will be real, and eternal, but not physical only stuff. They'll be made of 'Foreverstuff'!

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the implication of that is that adam was mortal to begin with.

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Not really. Whats so bad about dying after a thousand years if thats all you were going to live anyhow? Consider when this was said, after Adam ate the fruit! So, at this stage, he had started to die, and was mortal! But if he could've got to that tree, why, he's be immortal again, after all it's not called the tree of life forever!

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read the darned book

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I do, but I understand a lot of the darn thing as well!

that was the bit that brought up this part of the discussion. if you wanna backpeddle, be my guest. nothing to something would change. so god's sitting around personally holding every atom together with his sheer force of will? granted, i'm sure god COULD. but he'd be awfully stupid to only devise the strong and weak nuclear forces AFTER man mucked up.and uh, deciding to trick us while he's at. so not only is god a liar, but he's not too bright either. the only change i see in the bible after man eats the fruit is "their eyes were opened." and as god says "he's like one of us."it doesn't man became mortal. it doesn't say molecular decay entered the world. none of this split stuff. stop making stuff up. yeah, beautiful god given gift, isn't it? how do you suppose we got it? here's funny part. the snake didn't lie.god says "don't eat of that tree over there. if you do, i'll kill you. kill you kill you, not just let you die one day." (that's how hebrew emphasis, btw, by repition. so when god says "surely die" he's literally saying "DIE die" just to drive the concept home that he means death, not mortality. he might have meant mortality if he'd said it once, but he said it twice just make sure adam knew.)the snake says "god lied. if you eat of that try, you won't DIE die. you'll get knowledge of good and evil. that's why it's called 'knowledge of good and evil' and not 'death' stupid."eve says "oh yeah, that makes sense" and eats. and doesn't die. then she gives some to adam. who doesn't say anything, and just does what his wife tells him.so what happened? did they die? or did they get knowledge of good and evil. let's ask god. god, what happened when adam ate from the tree of knowledge?

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Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil!

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oh. and look at that. he doesn't kill them, just like the snake said. he just kicks them out. so god's either forgiving, or a liar. i like to think he's forgiving, don't you? sounds like a fun time, where can i get some? nothing, and that's not the point. adam WAS punished for his misdeed. (not sin, he didn't know any better, and couldn't have without eating...)here's adam's punishment:

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Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

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while we're on it, here's eve's:

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Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

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and here's the snake's:

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Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

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adam's is an explanation of why israel is bound to a desert, eve's is abotu why we have emotional raising children, and physical pain giving birth, and the snake's is why snakes have no legs. explains three things pretty quickly, doesn't it?but i don't see any death... actually, it is.

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Gen 3:22 ...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

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evidently not.

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Lets get it straight here, no we are not. No change whatsoever in rates.

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that was the bit that brought up this part of the discussion. if you wanna backpeddle, be my guest.

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Not at all, not by me, I see it as the process cahnged, not the rates.

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What we are talking about here is no decay rate at all!

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nothing to something would change

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The merged spiritual and physical is not nothing! Heaven is not nothing. Jesus body that came through walls, and ate, and whatnot after getting His, was not nothing. Doubt it? So did Thomas, and could have put his fingers in the wounds, because Jesus said clearly He was real, and not a spook, or spirit only!

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so god's sitting around personally holding every atom together with his sheer force of will?

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Reminds me of the verse Colossians 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "
So I don't think He has to sit under the golden gate bridge holding it up! Neither need He hold up the tree of life in heaven, or the wall around the city. In either world, physical or spiritual, things are set up to work right. In the merged ones it works the way it was meant to.
After the seperation, here in the physical, they just had to work, the best way possible for a temporary situation.

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the only change i see in the bible after man eats the fruit is "their eyes were opened." and as god says "he's like one of us."

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Yes, that was the effect they saw. They might have seen a lot more I suspect as well. Death was introduced, and decay. I'm sure they saw and felt quite a bit of new things. Next time He saw them they were cowering, or hiding, and when they came out, they had slapped together some covering for their bottoms.

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As I say, we really have this fantastic power of free will.

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yeah, beautiful god given gift, isn't it? how do you suppose we got it?

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He made us in His image. We used it even to make the wrong choice, of that darn tree.

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here's funny part. the snake didn't lie.

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Yes he did! They surely would die, and started to right away, surely!

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and look at that. he doesn't kill them, just like the snake said

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Yes, they ate the 'poison pill' and it was just a matter of time.

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Well in the merged universe things will be real, and eternal, but not physical only stuff. They'll be made of 'Foreverstuff'!

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sounds like a fun time, where can i get some?

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Not in the box. But it is everywhere in the coming merged world.

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here's adam's punishment:

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Well, my opinion there is that He was just telling them the effects of the split they had just caused! Even the dirt, or soil, now decaying, and all the rest. Creatures no longer friendly. Who knows, maybe the physical only caused a lot of chanfes in them for survival to the new conditions. I sometimes wonder if mosquitoes used to eat plants, back then? Ha. I think the male still is a vegetarian?

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adam's is an explanation of why israel is bound to a desert, ..

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There was no Israel here.

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but i don't see any death...

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Cain killed Abel. The others died to, but it took longer for the poison pill to do it's dirty work. If you look in the cambrian layer, seems to me a lot of things started to die pretty quick then as well! Little things generally don't live as long as big things.

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But if he could've got to that tree, why, he's be immortal again, after all it's not called the tree of life forever!

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actually, it is.

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Ha. A typo. I meant to say it's not called the tree of life 'for nothing'.nothing to something would change [/quote] The merged spiritual and physical is not nothing! Heaven is not nothing. Jesus body that came through walls, and ate, and whatnot after getting His, was not nothing. Doubt it? So did Thomas, and could have put his fingers in the wounds, because Jesus said clearly He was real, and not a spook, or spirit only!

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so god's sitting around personally holding every atom together with his sheer force of will?

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Reminds me of the verse that went something like 'by Him do all things consist'.

that is a change. for anything regarding decay rates to change, 2 of the 4 fundamental forces would have to be changed. this would basically prohibit physical existance. so if it changed, it was ONLY spiritual. as in created. yes. those are called "natural laws." even in heaven. yes, but you're ignoring the consequences of your proposal. funny, GOD sure doesn't mention anything else. and where in genesis did you find this? yeah, because they realized that god was a big scary guy, and they were puny mortals who had done something he told them not to do. plus, god had said he'd kill them. they were expecting to DIE.this is not a hard book, you know. try again. it was the tree of... what? god says, shall i quote? "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. "now, i discussed elsewhere with wmscott recently about "in the day." in the day is a CAUSAL thing. it means WHEN. when you eat of it, you'll die. god doesn't even actually say he'll do it, he just says they'll die. but literally, as it also applies, they'll die -- THAT DAY. die. not "start to die." die. as in they will become dead the same day. i was talking about whatever hallucinogen you're on. sure! in my opinion too. let's look a little deeper, then, shall we? before eating the tree of knowledge, they were not aware of good and evil. this story is fundamentally about the birth of the modern concious mind.what are the consequences of this? well, technology for one. man creates farms, whereas before he just gathered what he needed. and he works all day tilling the soil. on some level, this curse may even be about why fertile crescent isn't that fertile anymore (garden to desert theme). what else do we get? we get emotions, and awareness of suffering. god doesn't just speak of physical pain giving birth, he speaks of pain raising children.so the story is saying that the consequences of rational thought are emotional pain, and suffering under technology. neet, huh? some people even think god really WANTED us to eat of the tree, and to say anything else is just silly. god must have known we would, so why put there? it's all part of his master plan to TRULY make something in his image. without knowing good and evil (and according to god, being like him in some respect) we're more in his image than he created us, right? (kinda starting to sound like evolution in here....)but i STILL don't see anything in genesis 3 about death. do you? do you know what dirt and soil are?decayed organic material.so having a garden without dead stuff doesn't really work. plant = alive.vegetarians still cause death. and god CLEARLY indicates that man is allowed to eat (and therefore kill) plants.

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Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

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so there you go. death in the garden. yes, but *gasp* it was written at least after the foundation of israel and judah. like i'm sure i pointed out, it mentions kings in israel. which means that not only did israel exist when it was written (post judges) but it had kings (post samuel).what, you thought it was written as it went along? every 100 years or so, someone writes two sentances about their life? murder ≠ what we're talking about.we're talking about the introduction of death. abel is the first in the bible to die, and that is after the tree incident. but it was nto caused by the tree, nor the consequences god describes. you're talkign about something that is not in the bible. your point is still invalid. it is the tree of life -- forever. it gives eternal life. just like tree of knowledge's effects were permanent and hereditary, so were the tree of life's.

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Could you expand on that a little? By what process did the sun shine (eventually) without decay? And how far down does the lack of decay go? Nuclear forces? Gravity? Nudging every individual quark into place manually every plank second must get a bit dull, even for an infinite being.Aside from that, God creates the Earth with a self-destuct button (the Tree), gives us free will so that we're certain to push it eventually, BUT He's already put the continents on legs so he can wipe us "just in case".He's just jerking us around, isn't He?Personally, I'm not sure I'd like to spend eternity in the company of an omnipotent paranoid schizophrenic. Especially if there's no beer in heaven.This message has been edited by Dead Parrot, 04-24-2005 10:58 AMThis message has been edited by Dead Parrot, 04-24-2005 11:01 AM

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Mat 27:5 And he went and hanged himself
Luk 10:37 Go, and do thou likewise.

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that is a change. for anything regarding decay rates to change, 2 of the 4 fundamental forces would have to be changed. this would basically prohibit physical existance. so if it changed, it was ONLY spiritual.

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Are you suggesting that there are only 4 funamental forces in a merged physical/spiritual 'matter'? How do you know? Of course not! I the physical only, there may be only four which cannot change. Which force did Jesus obey, flying up to heaven in the ascension? Gravity? No. "Electromagnetism is the physics of the electromagnetic field, " another of these forces, as we see here has to do with physics. Physics is physical laws. Spiritual, or merged laws do not adhere to physics. The physical universe does. Physical processes do not and can not apply to a merged state.

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, things are set up to work right.

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yes. those are called "natural laws." even in heaven.

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In heaven it is natural to be spiritual. It would not be natural there, or possible to go by physical only laws.

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After the seperation, here in the physical, they just had to work, the best way possible for a temporary situation.

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yes, but you're ignoring the consequences of your proposal.

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No, you are assuming concequences that do not exist, because you know nothing about the merged atate, and how it affected, therefore the physical state!

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god says, shall i quote? "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. "

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"moth tamuth; Literally, a death thou shalt die; or, dying thou shalt die. Thou shalt not only die spiritually, by losing the life of God, but from that moment thou shalt become mortal, and shalt continue in a dying state till thou die. " Genesis 2 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
I believe this is more what God said and meant, and it was the devil who lied, not God.

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Death was introduced, and decay.

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and where in genesis did you find this?

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Man's death was introduced, as just pointed out. Science tells us things are decaying now, therefore are not eternal. Elsewhere in the bible we find out that so much is eternal, like the sun, and earth, etc. So now we know about decay, and it does exist. How could Adam have eaten the tree of life, and lived forever on earth, when earth was decaying? He couldn't! It must have been just like the bible says it will be, eternal. The decay has to end!

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Next time He saw them they were cowering, or hiding, and when they came out, they had slapped together some covering for their bottoms.

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yeah, because they realized that god was a big scary guy, and they were puny mortals who had done something he told them not to do. plus, god had said he'd kill them. they were expecting to DIE.

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That is your take on things. I think they may have also noticed a changed world. Animals that stsrted acting weird, as they too stsrted to undergo change, maybe they could not talk to the animals as they were used to doing now. Maybe the heavens looked different, as the spiritual light needed to be replaced with our slow physical only light. Maybe this even changed the sky color some? Maybe their bodies stsrted to go through some different things. Maybe they used to be flesh and bone, and now were being changed to flesh and blood? No, I think many things, everything started to be very different. Then there was their shame of nakedness, and maybe the realization they had been duped by the devil. Who knows, he may have laughed at them, and told them himself?

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some people even think god really WANTED us to eat of the tree,

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He prefers if we can do things the easy way, but will take what we give Him to work with.

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do you know what dirt and soil are?

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decayed organic material.

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so having a garden without dead stuff doesn't really work.

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Little rocks and particles are in dirt as well. Rocks decay. I wonder how the trees grow in heaven with no decay? I guess it is a different type of decay if any. Perhaps when we eat a fruit there, the unused portion just vanishes, leaving no mess, in an instant 'decay'!

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so there you go. death in the garden.

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Not for men or beast, or the earth. Also, the plants themselves, did they die? I don't think so. So eating their fruit isn't killing the plant at all!

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we're talking about the introduction of death. abel is the first in the bible to die, and that is after the tree incident. but it was nto caused by the tree, nor the consequences god describes.

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The sin that entered the world through Adam, and that Jesus came to destroy, was the root cause of murder. If Abel were immortal, I don't think one could kill him!

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your point is still invalid. it is the tree of life

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My point was that if Adam could've got to it, and eaten, as God says, he would have had eternal life (again). That was why it is called a tree of life, and we even have the same tree in New Jerusalem.

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Could you expand on that a little? By what process did the sun shine (eventually) without decay? And how far down does the lack of decay go? Nuclear forces? Gravity? Nudging every individual quark into place manually every plank second must get a bit dull, even for an infinite being.

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No need for nudging, or holding up bridges. Our physical, and the spirit world's spiritual., and the coming merged worlds combined processes all work very well. The sun will still be here, yes, but in a merged state, like everything else then, so it's processes will not be those that will result in it burning out! To answer this we would have to have a good idea how exactly the spiritual did work. Science doesn't. Yes, of course nuclear forces are different, ours are what leads to decay. Gravity? Well, we can fly in heaven, so it should be somewhat different. Makes me wonder if earth's gravity, then was different pre split as well? Maybe it was much less.

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Aside from that, God creates the Earth with a self-destuct button (the Tree), gives us free will so that we're certain to push it eventually, BUT He's already put the continents on legs so he can wipe us "just in case".

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Well, no. The earth is forever. Man, with his free will, actually did really have free will, and so, it looks like the experiment was set up. We don't know why. Maybe the angels had rebelled already, and the majority of heaven needed to see what it was like to chose to reject God, and live without Him?
Now that they can see the horrible results, I think all angelic defections are forever over! With real free will, man could have chosen not to have eaten the fruit, however. Now as to how the pillars of the earth were, I don't think it was set up to be for the flood? I doubt it. But He may have used it, or some cosmic things, or whatever, to do what needed to be done. He was sad about it. 'greived', doesn't sound at all like it was some diabolical plan all along. He had to purge the ranks, and cull off the bad ones, to save the rest.

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Especially if there's no beer in heaven.

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Why not? Theres wine we know of, and water, why not other beverages?