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Author Topic:   Will scientists ever find the connection between the physical and metaphysical?
Percy
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Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 5 of 40 (330025)
07-09-2006 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
07-09-2006 2:18 AM


If metaphysics is defined as the study of the ultimate nature of reality, and if that nature is deemed beyond the realm of the observable, sensory universe, then science can't find out anything about it. As soon as you decide that science actually *can* reach scientific conclusions about such things, then you've violated the initial assumption that the metaphysical nature of the universe is beyond the realm of science.
In my opinion, the only way discussions like this that try to connect science to the metaphysical or to the supernatural can only continue while the definitions of metaphysical and supernatural are kept vague. As soon as you carefully nail down the definitions there can no longer be a discussion because the conclusions are obvious and derive from the definitions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 07-09-2006 2:18 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 07-09-2006 10:19 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 9 of 40 (330048)
07-09-2006 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
07-09-2006 9:02 AM


crash writes:
I don't think so. If science progressed in that way, it would mean that science had discovered that information was physical.
This is from the introduction to Decoding the Universe by Charles Seife:
Information theory is so powerful because information is physical. Information is not just an abstract concept, and it is not just facts or figures, dates or names. It is a concrete property of matter and energy that is quantifiable and measurable. It is every bit as real as the weight of a chunk of lead or the energy stored in an atomic warhead, and just like mass and energy, information is subject to a set of physical laws that dictate how it can behave - how information can be manipulated, transferred, duplicated, erased, or destroyed. And everything in the universe must obey the laws of information, because everything in the universe is shaped by the information it contains.
What he's saying isn't really just a strongly worded metaphor. At heart, the laws of our universe are actually laws of information.
By the way, for anyone who recalls the discussion in the Codes, Evolution, and Intelligent Design thread where there were some claiming that starlight and tree rings do not contain encoded information, there's this from further on in the introduction:
Every creature on Earth is a creature of information; information sits at the center of our cells, and information rattles around in our brains. But it's not just living beings that manipulate and process information. Every particle in the universe, every electron, every atom, every particle not yet discovered, is packed with information - information that is often inaccessible to us, but information nonetheless, information that can be transferred, processed, and dissipated. Each star in the universe, each one of the countless galaxies in the heavens, is packed full of information, information that can escape and travel. That information is always flowing, moving from place to place, spreading throughout the cosmos.
--Percy

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 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2006 9:02 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 07-09-2006 10:43 AM Percy has replied
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 07-10-2006 12:24 AM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 12 of 40 (330064)
07-09-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by GDR
07-09-2006 10:19 AM


Anything that is part of the sensory universe is amenable to study by science. Anything that is not part of the sensory universe is not amenable to study by science. What you're doing is arguing for unsupported speculation to become part of science. By definition, speculation unsupported by evidence is not science.
Unsupported speculation that mentions genuine evidence is like a fictional story placed in a real-world setting.
--Percy

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 Message 10 by GDR, posted 07-09-2006 10:19 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by randman, posted 07-09-2006 4:21 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 13 of 40 (330066)
07-09-2006 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
07-09-2006 10:43 AM


Re: metaphysics is mythology
nwr writes:
I strongly disagree with Seife. I think his view is based on a seriously mistaken way of looking at the world.
Grist for its own thread if you're interested, but the difference probably boils down to a trivial disagreement about how one defines certain terms.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 07-09-2006 10:43 AM nwr has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 20 of 40 (330143)
07-09-2006 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by randman
07-09-2006 4:21 PM


Re: God as a material being.
Hi Randman,
As I said in the portion of my message that you didn't address, one can only have a discussion concerning the question of whether science might discover a connection between physics and metaphysics if the definitions of metaphysics and the supernatural remain vague and ill-defined. When someone posts clear definitions this will become readily apparent.
On the other hand, there may be certain scientific concepts that are not so scientific under that definition since they have not been so easily measured (such as the extra dimensions in string theory).
If you'd like to discuss not-so-scientific scientific topics then please propose a new thread and I'll approve it as soon as is practical.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by randman, posted 07-09-2006 4:21 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by randman, posted 07-09-2006 6:54 PM Percy has not replied

  
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