International opinions: USA on science!

I would like do discuss the opinions among americans about the ID theory and their political image outside the US. Being Norwegian, we all do worry about the negative trend as we see a population moving away from logics, and into what many europeans (and americans) consider a setback. Many of my friends are really concerned about our great US brothers general future shold ID theory gain more support. Do supporters of ID in america even worry a little bit about the fact that the rest of the world is directly shocked? What about image guys? These days US ID supporters are frequently considered similar to taleban.Just to inform. Governmental national UK and Norwegian TV seem to be running anti ID campaigns these days in order to prevent the spread of this insane ideology. Norwegian governmental TV (NRK) even made a big special on darwin recently (Newton, a science program for kids). It was obviously an attempt to immunize norwegian youth towards this ideological pest. How well do the average american feel about this development as all americal knowhow and skills are about to be branded "less worthy" in the international world of science?Edited by Hauk, : The original post was written after several hours in a pub. Several spelling and language corrections.

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The fool on the hill

My original post was probably a bit harsh on the americans. We all know that the majority of your population still have the ability to steer away from this nonsence. It is still however something european media are not in any way afraid to critisize and make fun of as an american phenomenon. In a recent science program there was an comment from Dawkins, reassuring us all (europeans) that "ID theory DO NOT have support in the scientific america. It ONLY has support among the part of the population that dont know anything"... The next cut was of course directly over to Mr Bush talking warmly about ID.

As a non american I am very aware of the bad reputation USA has among some groups in regards of military operations etc, and many non americans are concerned about these thing. Sometimes the critics are fair and sometimes people just join the trend and blame the USA for everything. When it comes to religion and science however, I think many europeans consider this development (the ID controversy), to be a lot more alarming then your foreign policy. What I think many are affraid of, is the combination of religion and the agressive foreign policy you mention, should it become a religious tool for religious leaders. I know many think that has happened allready, but I'm sure it could also become a lot worse if all scence and logic where to be replaced by wholy words. I really hope the relations between science and politics are consolidated in the future of USA, and that the creationalists will stay where they belong, in the minority pit.I'm also more then worried by potential spread of this illness to europe and the rest of the world. (Alarming facts from our friend in Germany in a previous post). It is in any case a shame that these problems should occur in the USA, rather then other places, as you (americans) are the absolute leading power when it comes to science.

Hi. You ask me why i consider creationalism such a treath. I'll give it a shot, but first I woould like to let you know that I'm a science geek, not an actual scientist. I'm actuali a computer engineer working on computer games (Games, unlike the bacteria flagell, still need intelligent designers). I also have some education in history. Primarily european history.I will try not to mention the most dangerous and most obvious reason for why i fear religon (war and conflict. "It is the will of God"). I'l rather try to put some light on how religion has wrecked havoc earlier. And that is a story that start a long long time ago. The first modern human (hunter gatherers etc) are beleived to have been mostly religious in some sort of way, and I dont blame them. They where surrounded by totaly unexplainable phenomenons like gravity, fire, weather, life/death, deseases, night and day cycle, the annual seasons etc. As mankind evolved, science became more and more evident. Early science often dealt with crucial knowledge to improve mankinds chance of survival and prosperity. When we became agricultural, understanding seasons was the most important thing. As we know, people who had drawings of the mon, the sun and stars, were often accused of dealing with witchcraft, and even centuries later Kopernicus was sentenced to death for claming that earth evolves around the sun. Kopernicus was by no means alone to suffer from punishment for his ideas, but the ones who suffered the most was mankind itselfe. Had these ideas and formulas been accepted earlier, man would overcome many major obstacles earlier. Later on, the forerunner to modern medicine suffered the same destiny as many curious people tried to learn and understand the relation between the material world and our health. In Europe we burned most of these people alive on big fires blaming them for wichcraft. Among European historians it is also a well established agreement that the church had political reasons to hold down science as it was considered a treath to the established political system that worked in favour to te priesthood. Oh well. Power makes anybody crazy, religious or not. In the middle ages, deseases was often beleived to be interventions from gods, so rather then looking for cures etc, people accepted it or made attempts to please the gods by sacrifice and other silly things. Fortunately we got the industrial revolution wich breath new life and acceptance to the earlier greek way of thinking. Science became popular and accepted (with some exceptions in medicine). The benefits of the industrial revolution is what made our living condition better and better (pollution etc is a different challenge). You may say that the unfortunate results of religion happened a long time again, and that times are changed. To me ID theroy is just a sign that times might havent changed that much, or a reminder of the fact that history have a tendency to repeat itselfe. That is why I am scared.Allright, so the reason why I'm so affraid of the I.D. movement is that it is competing with science, and any progress for ID theory will be on the cost of science. And science is always neutral. It is neither good or evil. In any case, progress in science is always a good thing. I do not understand why science often is considered blasfemy bo others. Charls Darvin did not invent the shocking truth about our origin, he discovered it. Dont shoot the messengers.The way things are now, people like yourselfe, wish to force this nonsence (sorry man, I really think it is nonsence) into schools. To me that is like presenting options to young people who do not yet have the prerequisite to make an intelligent desition about what to beleive in. It is like presenting 2 sides of every story. "That is historians opinions on how nazism worked in the 40'ies kids... Tomorrow we will have a genuine nazi telling us all about the good sides of nazism". Education should be based on what we know, and it should be the burden of the people with alternatives to reality, to tell their adventures, not schools. I think the pastafarians have a valid point with their Flying Spagetti Monster stunt. If anybody should be able to force their alternative beleifs into the educational system, then the value of education would be severly devaluated. And we would have scools that teached us about UFO abductions, reinkarnation, and of course, adventures about a world that is 6000 years old and suddenly had us standing there as the result of a slap with the magic wand.I think science is the only way forward for mankind, and I consider ID theory to be a sabotage attemt to science. The real potential danger is in my opinion in the future... If this way of thinking get to evolve, then who knows, maybe neurologist are prevented to work because it is in conlfict with the image of a soul. People do not have nervous systems, we got souls... So no more work on parkinsons desease, altzheimers, epilepsy etc. I guess you got the picture. Also, if we prevent science to work freely in other areas, who knows what kind of good knowledge we are potentially missing?Me personally, I think your way of thinking is directly wrong, but I normally accept that people are wrong. But when it comes to ID, i sence a bit of misionary spirit, presented by cowards. I think that many creationalists are cowards as I beleive they fear reality. Like ostriches hiding their head in the sand, it seems to me that you do whatever it takes in order to escape the rather "grimm" truth about us humas and the world we live in. When it all comes to it, I suspect that a lot of you guys are actually lying. Lying to us and to yourselfes. I can not understand how anybody can actually beleive that the world is 6000 years old, despite the owerwhelming evidenses saying it is older. I'm sure that deep inside yourselfe you agree, but your afraid to admit it. I sincerely beleive that the existens of my ego is eternally lost as the material where my nevrological combinations are stored, dissintegrates (death). I'm also sincerly convinced that the best option mankind have in our strange and seemingly pointless existens, is to make the best out of things. As an atheist I feel i have a "religion" of my own. I am aware of my instincts and try to make the world the best place possible for me, people around me, and my potential kids in the future. To me, darvins evolution theory is actually contributing to make life seem worth living. It gives life meaning. If some new science (real science), should teach us otherwise, i would still accept it.When I'm first at it I also feel it is a bit unfair when I read that many americans disstrust atheists more than any other group. What is wrong with us? "We" are the ones who actually make our desitions on what we know, rather then blindly following ancient manuscripts written centuries before mankind knew the first thing about anything. We mean no harm witch science, and we also have moral and ethics.Oh well... That was my rather messy and lengthy rant on that. Come to think of it, many scientists say the "debate" about ID should not waste intellectual resources, it should rather be ignored. After gettin emotional on the issue myselfe, I see their point.PS: Being an atheist who use strong words about your beleifs, I do not in any way wish to attack you as a person. We are all brothers in this world. Peace!

I guess I might mix up some details about Copernicus. Maybe he was the first to claim that the earth is a sphere. I dont remember. I guess I have to hide behind the statement that I'm a science geek, rather then a scientist, for other weaknesses and mistakes

More than anything else it requires an understanding and appreciation of uncertainty.

When it comes to this point I have to admit that working for a decade with computer technology, this is probably one of my weaker sides. I'm facinated by uncertainty, but I sure try my best to avoid it in my proffesional work. I do however find uncertainty a serious motivating factor as I am the kind of guy who wish to understand absolutely everything (even though I merly know a tiny bit about a lot). I do totally agree to all point made by yourselfe and Jar.When I first entered this forum I actually excpected a lot of crazies fighting eachother violently like a bunch of rabid dogs on speed. My reason for entering was pure curiosity. I wanted to see for myselfe how crazy the ID supperters actually are. They "appear" a less crazy then I excpected, wich is probably why they manage to fool that "many". I'm therefor surprised and pleased by the wisdom and knowledge among the other users of this forum. I must admit that I feel like an underdog among many of you when it comes to the actual knowledge, as the topics in this forum is so far away from my own fields of education and profession. But for the same reason I enjoy all kinds of science books, documentaries, edutainment and general science articles, I also enjoy these debates.I'm also very pleased by the fact that it seems like many good americans really do care about their situation, so I'm rather optimistic that the good guys (guess who?) will eventually be the ones to prevail.And finally a lame little riddle: What do you get if you put a bunch of people in a big jar and wait for 1000 years?Answer: Homo Creationalist (Similar to Homo Erectus, but with bibles), and Homo Sapiens v1.2 (Like todays human, but even smarter and without bibles).Edited by Hauk, : Clumpsy fingers. Typos

My misstake.. I got it. As i mentioned earlier, I would accept alternatives to the evolution concept, if it was based on more solid scientific observations then the ones we have today. So I guess we still agree on that one By the way, I tried Wikipedia. I was actually thinking of Galileo Galilei offcorse. Who they avtually forced to drink that poison, I can not remember. I stand correctedEdited by Hauk, : Eh... WikipediaEdited by Hauk, : No reason given.Edited by Hauk, : No reason given.

When i started this thread I was a little bit drunk, and my thoughts where blurred. The very same thing is a fact about my early replies and should help explain the poor language and all the mess in general. (I had a nice one week holiday)I realize that I do not in any way have enough knowledge or lingual skills to bring other then emotions and thoughts into this deabate. It seems like there are enough people like me who spend a lot more time studying the details then I do. I also feel that this discussion is going nowhere and only waste the energy of good people. Even though I appreciate the intellectual challenge of a good debate, I can not see any fuits of trying to defend my poorly written opinions etc. Thankfully there are intelligent guys like yourselfes who is taking this responsebility seriously. It seems like both camps are equally stubborn, and I am myselfe as stubborn as ever. I also conlude that the core of what I dissagree with or disslike with creationalists and ID supporters, is the very same thing that makes it hard to debate in a serious way. As long as any solid argument can be waved off with shamelessly weak statements, I see no hope of getting a message delivered to the intended receivers. Fortunately others do a much better job at this then I do. I know enough to know what makes sence and what makes nonsence, but I dont know enough to contribute among you guys. If this challenge should ever reach Norway, I will offcourse do my duty and argue for my opinions (then in my own language). Hopefully I will never need to, but as I know we have "crazy" people here to, I guess I can never rest too assured.The original theme in this thread was about Americas relations to the rest of the world in regards of a potentional powershift. As I see that the deabte is very alive I rest assured that there are no need for us Europeans to assist you in your struggle. Maybe we will have the same struggle over here one day too, as people made me aware that we got ID supporters/creationalists here as well.I guess I'm one of those defined as a typhically new guy who comes in all guns blazing, only to stay active for a short time, never to bee seen again.I'm happy with what I have learned as I got the impression that people with rational sence is dominating. At least in this forum. I do not envy you who need to constantly be on the alert and monitor the momentum of creationalists ideas, not to mention their influence. I wish you all the best of luck, and I hope the civilised debates of this nature will continue to be the way we discuss our different opinions also in the future. I'm glad to see that there seems to be very littel hatered in all the frustration.I'm sorry for not answering all posts directly addressed to me. I have read them all, but I do not feel I have the capacity to handle them all (Holidays are over).Enjoy the conflict!

I agree. There is nothing better then a civilized debate. I think our beleifs however are so fundamentally different when we get to the business of things, that I am affraid we will keep on disagreing for all eternity, or until my kind of science teach me new stuff. I guess the major difference has to do with the stuff you call faith. I have none. He he.. Note that there is a major diffenrece between Crazy and "crazy". No worries man... I merely think you are wrong.. And I cant help it, but i think all religious people (or creationalists), are just a liiittle bit crazy. Because mankind have very long and solid traditions and culture in religion, I do not think you are as crazy as people who claim they are pregnant with aliens etc, but I can not help making some assosiations as I think both ideas are based on other things then our physically observable reality. You just almost make me feel bad about beeing a bully against you Thanks for beeing a good sport. If you and I lived in the same street I'm sure we would be good friends. We would however definately keep on disagreeing on certain matters involving invisible entities, apes and humans.