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Author Topic:   Christianity For Morons
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 256 of 306 (101049)
04-19-2004 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by desdamona
04-19-2004 10:31 PM


Re: Difficulties of a theory
Thats all that anyone here ever asks Des.
No one wants you to leave your faith. They just ask that you UNDERSTAND the other side. Most people here find it hard to understand how someone can be against an issue that they do not know anything about.
Understanding is all we ask.
I'm glad things seem to be calming down.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by desdamona, posted 04-19-2004 10:31 PM desdamona has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 306 (101050)
04-19-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Asgara
04-19-2004 9:32 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
It is recorded in a statement supposedly made by Darwin himself,that
the human eye had to be created by a creator.
this is on the web site: 404 Not Found
It seemed very reliable.

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Asgara, posted 04-19-2004 9:32 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Asgara, posted 04-19-2004 10:50 PM desdamona has replied
 Message 260 by NosyNed, posted 04-19-2004 10:53 PM desdamona has replied
 Message 261 by Sylas, posted 04-19-2004 11:10 PM desdamona has replied
 Message 281 by Melchior, posted 04-20-2004 5:37 AM desdamona has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 258 of 306 (101052)
04-19-2004 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by mike the wiz
04-19-2004 9:58 PM


It might surprise you
There is a short description here
Message 1
of a surprising finding in the genome of a number of different animals.
This is by no means conclusive but it may take less genetic change to increase brain size than you think. What we think of as large differences may be a bias on our part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by mike the wiz, posted 04-19-2004 9:58 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 259 of 306 (101054)
04-19-2004 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by desdamona
04-19-2004 10:37 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
Yes, Darwin did say that. But you have to read it in context. This is a literary form that Darwin used a lot. He would bring up a difficulty that he could see with his theory...BUT...then he would go on to answer that difficulty.
Organs of extreme perfection and complication. To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound.
In looking for the gradations by which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal ancestors; but this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced in each case to look to species of the same group, that is to the collateral descendants from the same original parent-form, in order to see what gradations are possible, and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted from the earlier stages of descent, in an unaltered or little altered condition. Amongst existing Vertebrata, we find but a small amount of gradation in the structure of the eye, and from fossil species we can learn nothing on this head. In this great class we should probably have to descend far beneath the lowest known fossiliferous stratum to discover the earlier stages, by which the eye has been perfected....
You can read the rest of this passage here about half way down.
I believe Sylas gave you the link to the entire book online.
literature.org

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by desdamona, posted 04-19-2004 10:37 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 1:03 AM Asgara has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 260 of 306 (101055)
04-19-2004 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by desdamona
04-19-2004 10:37 PM


The Origin of Species
The Origin is online in its entirety. You may use it to see for yourself that your source site is misleading and even dishonest.
It doesn't take any waffling about a lawsuit.
The Origin of Species
If you want (honestly want) help with comparing what your site claims and what is true then we will offer that help.
It would be useful for you to state what you think that your site is telling you so we understand what you think you are being told. You might show that you are honestly trying to learn by responding to those earlier 'quotes' which have already been shown to be, at best, misleading. Do you agree or disagree?
(I have noticed that you seem to have missed my recent post )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by desdamona, posted 04-19-2004 10:37 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 1:08 AM NosyNed has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 261 of 306 (101065)
04-19-2004 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by desdamona
04-19-2004 10:37 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
desdamona writes:
It is recorded in a statement supposedly made by Darwin himself, that the human eye had to be created by a creator. This is on the web site: 404 Not Found
It seemed very reliable.
You make two concrete claims above. They are
  • That Darwin made a statement to the effect that the human eye had to be created by a creator.
  • That this statement is to be found on the web page cited.
Both these claims are false, and elementary honesty means you should retract your claim.
You are the only person who will actually benefit from such a retraction. Your own credibility depends on being able to swiftly recognize and admit such straightforward errors. I don't think anyone else has been taken in by this misrepresentation.
Your source isn't reliable at all. It is an example of what is called a "quote mine"... a massive collection of isolated quotes, many of which are out of context and presented in a way that misrepresents the author. Quote mines are a classic example of the impoverished scholarship that pervades anti-evolution rhetoric.
And worse, you are not even reliable in repeating what is on that page! There is no quote on that page where Darwin says anything about a creator.
There are three quotes attributed to Darwin on that page; and you have previously repeated the first two in this thread, in Message 63. They were comprehensively debunked by Quetzal in Message 72. The extract which refers to the eye, from "Difficulties on Theory", chapter 6 of "Origin", is perhaps the most well known and notorious example of deliberately dishonest out of context quotation.
Desdamona; this is not aimed at you personally. You are being comprehensively lied to by the sources you are using. At the very least, if you are going to talk about Darwin making contradictions in well known and widely accessible sources, you owe it to yourself to do a minimal check.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by desdamona, posted 04-19-2004 10:37 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Asgara, posted 04-19-2004 11:20 PM Sylas has not replied
 Message 272 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 1:13 AM Sylas has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 262 of 306 (101066)
04-19-2004 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Sylas
04-19-2004 11:10 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
Thanks Sylas, I should have been more exacting in my reply to Des. Darwin did make the quote that is on that page, but no it doesn't say what Des claims it said.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Sylas, posted 04-19-2004 11:10 PM Sylas has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by coffee_addict, posted 04-19-2004 11:35 PM Asgara has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 505 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 263 of 306 (101070)
04-19-2004 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by desdamona
04-19-2004 6:23 PM


Re: Watch It!
desdamona writes:
again Lam,I ask you to show your evidence.
For one thing, you are asking me to show evidence of lack of evidence. What do you want me to do, show you an empty hand?
I hate to repeat myself, so here are some quotes of myself from earlier posts.
Lam writes:
Please name some things you've witnessed in your life. Remember the part about introducing unsupported beliefs into a debate that I talked about?
Lam writes:
If you have any real evidence, I'm all ears... or in this case all eyes.
[This message has been edited by Lam, 04-19-2004]

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by desdamona, posted 04-19-2004 6:23 PM desdamona has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 505 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 264 of 306 (101073)
04-19-2004 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Asgara
04-19-2004 11:20 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
Asgara writes:
Thanks Sylas, I should have been more exacting in my reply to Des. Darwin did make the quote that is on that page, but no it doesn't say what Des claims it said.
This reminds me of an interview I saw of a school board member of our school district. A news reporter asked her if she thought public school should have sex education to inform school children of the danger of STD's and stuff like that, and she answered "yes." Well, the news paper later screamed "she wants to teach kids how to have sex!"
This is the typical misrepresentation of someone else's words. I personally think these people should be shot for putting words in other people's mouths.
[This message has been edited by Lam, 04-19-2004]

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Asgara, posted 04-19-2004 11:20 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Sylas, posted 04-19-2004 11:39 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Sylas
Member (Idle past 5288 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 265 of 306 (101074)
04-19-2004 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by coffee_addict
04-19-2004 11:35 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
Lam wants to bring in the death penalty for people who use quotes he doesn't like!!!!
(Ducks and runs...)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by coffee_addict, posted 04-19-2004 11:35 PM coffee_addict has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 505 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 266 of 306 (101077)
04-19-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by desdamona
04-19-2004 9:18 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
Desdamona writes:
DNA,to serve it's complete purpose,it must always be complete.
An incomplete DNA sequence cannot reorganize itself to a complete-
one.Therefore a DNA cannot evolve,because that requires it to be-
self conscious,a self conscious C,N,O and H molecules!
Thats not possible.
If we argue that a complex molecule like DNA can come into being,
by chance,then it's nothing short of a good laugh.
I can't even begin to understand how you came to this conclusion. Please explain what you mean by DNA evolving, self conscious..., reorgainize..., etc.... Explain more what the heck you are talking in this post.
Coincidently, have you ever heard of the experiment conducted by Stanley Miller in the early 1950's?
He created an apparatus of closed environment. He put in nitrogen, hydrogen, and a bunch of other non-organic molecules along with water to simulate the condition of Earth at some 3.5 billion years ago. He then zapped the whole thing with electricity for like 8 days. Afterward, he took everything apart and found small organic molecules such as monomers of proteins, the 20 amino acids required for life, several sugars, lipids, nucleotides that are monomers of DNA and RNA, and even ATP.
In other words, all these organic molecules came from inorganic material quite easily in certain conditions that happened to be conditions of early Earth.
How come you've never seen this kind of information on the creationist websites that you use? That's because creationists always chose to completely ignore scientific experiments such as this one.
If you don't understand any of the term above, just ask and I'll explain. Or, you can do a search on the internet.
By the way, what was that about a good laugh?
[This message has been edited by Lam, 04-19-2004]

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by desdamona, posted 04-19-2004 9:18 PM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2004 12:13 AM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 273 by desdamona, posted 04-20-2004 1:23 AM coffee_addict has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 267 of 306 (101080)
04-20-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by coffee_addict
04-19-2004 11:53 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
Afterward, he took everything apart and found small organic molecules such as monomers of proteins, the 20 amino acids required for life, several sugars, lipids, nucleotides that are monomers of DNA and RNA, and even ATP.
Check your sources, Lam. All that stuff has been made abiotically, but not, AFAIK, in any single experiment. The original Urey-Miller experiment made six or seven amino acids, not all of them among the "essential" twenty. Thing such as amino acids and the vitamin niacin, however, have been found in pristine meteorites - you don't need a lab or life to make 'em.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by coffee_addict, posted 04-19-2004 11:53 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 306 (101086)
04-20-2004 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Quetzal
04-19-2004 10:16 PM


Re: This is surreal
I do not know this is a lie.
I have not read all the facts yet,but as far as I know,
this is not a lie at this time.
Just because you say something is a lie doesn't make it a lie.
Why would I promote a lie when I have full confidence in what,
I believe,and about Darwin I am still learning what he believed and,
what he said,ect...
Lie's are not something that I want any part of.
There is enough information in the DNA of a single human cell to fill
an encyclopedia of one million pages.
It would be impossible to read it all in one lifetime.
To me,that is strong evidence and it supports creationism.
http://www.harunyahya.com/20questions05.php
A computer cannot even hold the data of one single human cell.
Whether or not Darwin contradicted himself many times over is not,
the main focal point to me.,although many people believe that he did,
and made many blunders and that he did contradict himself,I'm trying to
understand why people believe in this.
I don't want to believe that people choose not to believe in God or the bible just because they want to be free of God and/or authority.
I would rather believe that people who don't believe there is a God,
do so because they really truly feel that he doesn't exist,and that they believe evolution is really the correct way to believe.
why should anyone judge evolutionists in a harsh light?
I hope to at least understand why they feel as they do so I can know,
that it is false to believe that they willingly refuse to believe in
God just to be free of him,ect....
I am believing that evolutionists,like many people all over the world, truly believe in what they claim to believe in.
If Darwin didn't contradict himself,I don't know that yet.
Yes,I know Darwin is dead,but the man had family didn't he?
The point is,it seems very sad that those claiming to be christian,
would have to invent lie's on the man.I don't have proof that they,
lied at this time.

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Quetzal, posted 04-19-2004 10:16 PM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-20-2004 1:44 AM desdamona has not replied
 Message 279 by Sylas, posted 04-20-2004 2:43 AM desdamona has replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 306 (101090)
04-20-2004 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Asgara
04-19-2004 10:50 PM


Re: Another Christian seeking the Truth?
Thank you for this information.
This is exactly what has been done to make the bible appear,
as though it contradicts itself.
In this light,it does seem like some people have done,the very-
same thing they don't want done to the bible.
upon first glance it does seem like a contradiction.

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Asgara, posted 04-19-2004 10:50 PM Asgara has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 306 (101093)
04-20-2004 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by NosyNed
04-19-2004 10:53 PM


Re: The Origin of Species
I agree that both sides should be looked at fairly.
I am a christian by choice and because I cannot denie the
evidence in my life,yet it would be unfair to say that others
don't have valid reasons to believe as they do.
I agree that we must be fair,and be honest.

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by NosyNed, posted 04-19-2004 10:53 PM NosyNed has not replied

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