Bible prophecy - Nothing compares

Ken,If there's something you would like to discuss here, you are going to have to stop hiding behind links and arguing by proxy.You seem to be under the impression that none of us are aware of the information you link to, but that is not the case for most of us. The situation is that you want to effortlessly slap out links to huge amounts of apologist literature, expect us to provide time consuming and detailed responses to a wide range of assertions, to which you then respond with "Nuh-uh, it's all true".If you want to discuss biblical prophecy, pick one, detail when/where the prophecy was uttered and when/how it was subsequently fulfilled, and you will get reasonable responses.It's either that or we can just effortlessly post a dozen links in rebuttal for you to read and respond to in detail. But then, this is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a recommended reading list.Namaste'Amlodhi

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Originally posted by buzsaw

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Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the city in 573 B.C.

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An island colony was left intact.

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Alex the Great built a causeway out of the debris from Nebuchadnezzar's previous destruction of Tyre's mainland and swept the colony clean to the bedrock. . .

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You say that Alexander threw all of the debris from mainland Tyre into the sea to make a causeway and then scraped the island part of the city of Tyre clean down to the rock. Thus, the prophecy is true and that was the end of Tyre.OK, let's take this a step at a time.One question for you: Who did Antigonus attack and lay siege to c. 20 yrs. after the final event you have described above?[Hint: It starts with a "T" and was still strong enough to withstand this next siege for 15 months.]Namaste'Amlodhi

Hi buzsaw,I have other questions for you regarding this matter, but have just not had time to give my attention to it. Maybe tomorrow.In the meantime, perhaps you will tell us where exactly mainland Tyre (or Ushu) was located. Was it directly opposite the island, farther south at Ras El Ein, to the north, or somewhere in between?Namaste'Amlodhi

Hello buzsaw,Sorry it took so long to respond but, as I mentioned, I was under other time constraints and I wanted to be able to take an indepth look at this Ezekiel/Tyre passage (Ez. chapter 26).From your previous posts, it appears that your confidence in this passage is based on 4 basic points, to wit:1) Tyre was a mainland city and the island was only a later colony.2) Modern Tyre is not built on the same location as Phoenician Tyre.3) The switch from the 3rd pers. sing. pronoun (he) to the 3rd pers. plur. pronoun (they) between verses 11 & 12, is the dividing line between the role of Nebuchadnezzar and the later role of Alexander in fulfilling this prophecy.4) The phrases "many nations" and "as the sea causeth his waves to come up", indicates that various nations will fulfill this prophecy over time.Concerning #1:

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buzsaw

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Tyre, built on an island and on the neighbouring mainland, was probably originally founded as a colony of Sidon.

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Tyre likely was originally a colony of Sidon. However, I don't see the relevance of this. The Tyre that Ezekiel said would be destroyed would need to be the Tyre that existed at the time of the prophecy, not merely the location of the first ancient building project.The island part of Tyre was a major portion of the city long before Ezekiel's time. In fact, in the 10th century B.C. Hiram (the king of Tyre at that time), joined the two islets off the coast by landfill making one larger island. Later he extended the island city further by building up considerable areas around the perimeter. The island portion of the city was also the location of the royal palaces and the later religious cathedrals of Ba'lu who was king in Tyre at least 100 yrs. before Ezekiel's prophecy was uttered.Ancient Assyrian texts from the time of Esarhaddon (680 - 669 b.c.) attest to the island city (and the suburban mainland towns) of Tyre.

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(I am Esarhaddon) . . . I conquered Tyre which is amidst the sea. [Ba'lu, king of Ty]re, living [on an island amidst the sea] . . . threw off my yoke . . . [of As]hur and the splendor of my lordship [overwhelmed him] . . . I took away from him those of his towns (which are situated on) the mainland . . ."

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(square brackets fill lacunae in accordance to line length and spacing)

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"Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament", James B. Pritchard, ed., Princeton. Univ. Press, 1969, pg. 290 & 291 (Inscriptions: 1st quote - clay barrel found in Ashur {2-11 obverse}; 2nd quote - Prism B (2-10 reverse).

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Subsequent to Esarhaddon, Ashurbanipal (668 - 633) forced Tyre to submit to the Assyrian yoke by cutting off Tyre's supply of fresh water and their communications both on land and at sea. That these Assyrian forces had war ships is made evident from the Prism B text of Esarhaddon:

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I caught out of the open sea, like a fish, Abdimilkutte, its (Sidon's) king, who had fled before my attack into the high sea . . .

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[ibid (ANET), pg 290; from Prism B (i 9-54)]

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Even Isaiah says Tyre was an island at the time of Ezekiel's prophecy:

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Isaiah 23:6 (The burden of Tyre)

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Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle.

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Thus, long before the prophecy of Ezekiel, the island of Tyre was a fortified city (on which also were located it's harbors, one north and one south, the ramparts of which can still be seen today), and on which were located the urban palaces and religious centers of the upper class. As indicated in the Prism B inscription of Esarhaddon, the mainland portion of Tyre consisted of various towns opposite the island on the coast and outside of the imposing ramparts which protected the island city. This ground plan (suburban villages and towns outlying the main fortifications of the urban upper class), was the norm for this era.Concerning #2, Modern Tyre is not built on the same location as Phoenician Tyre:As has been shown above, in the time of Ezekiel's prophecy, Tyre was a fortified island stronghold with various towns strewn along the coast. Some of these towns, though under the auspices of the king of Tyre, were not necessarily part of Tyre proper but were likely those referred to in the bible as the "daughters" of Tyre. Because the water between the mainland and the island was shallow (the Phoenician ships could not navigate close enough to hinder Alexander's mote building), the portion of mainland Tyre directly opposite the island may have even existed on a natural promontory.Some of the recent archaeological research in the area provides some data regarding the boundaries of Phoenician Tyre. Since c. 1991, several articles from the Phoenican era have been unearthed on the island and the mainland area. These finds include various embossed stelae, amulets and cinerary urns with the residue of human bones inside. It soon became evident that the area in question was an ancient cemetery, (and some have even speculated that it is an ancient "tophet" suggesting child sacrifice).These first two images are aerial photos of the island and mainland portions of Tyre as it exists today: The following graphic image is an outline of the more densely populated areas of the modern island and mainland portion of the city and also depicts the preserved areas of Greek and Roman ruins. As can be seen in the top picture above, many of the geographical areas outside the more densely populated areas are now interspersed with various buildings and farms. The Lebanese Department of Antiquities' excavation areas: 1, 2 and 3 are the light (and numbered if you can see it) areas; 1 and 2 on the upper left edge of the island and 3, lower right on the mainland by the hippodrome. (Map by courtesy of the late Roger Saidah, Department of Antiquities) Various sources have suggested that the various coastal villages and towns that existed along the Phoenician coast were often lumped together under the regional designation of "Tyre" or sometimes "Sidon". Depending on the source, the extent of this suburban sprawl has been estimated to be anywhere from 7 to 20 miles along the length; stretching along the coast from Ras El Ein approximately 3 miles to the south and almost to Sidon on the north and, as mentioned, were probably considered satellite villages (or, as in the bible, daughters) of Tyre proper.In order for Ezekiel's prophecy to have any meaning whatsoever, he must necessarily have been referring to Tyre proper as it existed at the time, which apparently consisted of a heavily fortified urban island and a fortified coastal town directly opposite with various affiliated towns and suburban sprawl stringing along the coast in either direction. The images above indicate that the majority of this area has been built on and populated throughout history by the Greeks and the Romans as well as in the modern era.#3, The switch from the 3rd pers. sing. pronoun (he) to the 3rd pers. plur. pronoun (they) between verses 11 & 12, is the dividing line between the role of Nebuchadnezzar and the later role of Alexander in fulfilling this prophecy.And:#4, The phrases "many nations" and "as the sea causeth his waves to come up", indicates that various nations will fulfill this prophecy over time.These fall into the same category and can be discussed together. The first weakness of this argument is that it is merely semantics. IOW, if this prophecy actually intended to refer to Alexander, a clear statement to that effect could have been made at any point. After all, it is contended that Isaiah prophesied Cyrus by name +/- 200 years before the fact. And yet, this prophecy in Ezekiel is reduced to dependence upon nitpicking otherwise normal pronoun usage and the dubious interpretation of two ambiguous terms.The assertion that a switch in pronoun number is somehow to be taken as a reference to Alexander is nothing more than a complete disregard for the grammatical rules of antecedents. The antecendents to the pronoun "they" in verse 12 are given in verses 7 & 10, i.e. (respectively) "companies and much people" and "horsemen". "They" are "his" (Nebuchadnezzar's) companies and horsemen, and "he" uses "them" to destroy the city.Take a look at the phrase in verse 10, "By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee . . ." The antecedent to the pronoun "their" in this sentence is "(his) horses". IOW, the pronoun "their" in this sentence does not refer to the daughters of Tyre, it doesn't refer to Alexander's horses and neither does it refer to the modern local equestrian club. It is connected to the antecedent in the same manner in which "they" in verse 12 is connected to "his" (Nebuchadnezzar's) companies and horsemen.And, as if this shouldn't be obvious, some of the earliest extant documents we have do not contain a switch in these pronouns at all. The LXX recension is one such example. Because the LXX verses apply to the following considerations also, I will reproduce the relevant portion of the LXX text subsequent to the next few points.Then also, we both understand that "sea", "flood" and "waters" are often used metaphorically for the movement of massive armies. However, here (and for no other excuse than to make this prophecy fit), you want to attach undue significance to the term "waves". Interpreting "waves" to mean that the armies of various different cultures in various different eras will attack Tyre in succession is demonstrably unwarranted. The demonstration that this is so can be made with a couple of verses:The phrase in Jer. 26:3, ". . . as the sea causeth his waves to come up", metaphorially refers to Nebuchdnezzar's armies overflowing Tyre in the same manner that the rising tide causes the sea waves to overflow the land.Jeremiah describes the fall of Babylon using the same metaphorical terminology, i.e. Jer. 51:42, "The sea is come up upon Babylon; she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof."Neither does "many nations" refer to the armies of different cultures at different times. Had this prophecy intended to indicate that Tyre would be destroyed by different independent nations over a period of time, it would have been quite easy to specify in words such as: "Nation after nation will attack Tyre until the city is wiped from the face of the earth."As it is, the Hebrew term translated as "many" in Ez. 26:3 is "rab", which is properly translated as "abundant". Hence, rather than Tyre being attacked one nation at a time over a long period, the verse more properly describes Tyre being overflowed (as in the rising tide metaphor) by abundant nations. As it happens, Nebuchadnezzar was king over and had command of many (or abundant) nations and men from all of these many nations served as part of his armed forces.One example here should suffice. When Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem, Jeremiah spoke in terms of the city fighting against "all the kingdoms of the earth under Nebuchadnezzar's command", i.e. many nations had overflowed Jerusalem:Jeremiah 34:1 ". . . Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and all his army, and all the kingdoms of the earth of his dominion , and all the people, fought against Jerusalem. . ."Here now are the relevant passages reproduced from the LXX (all emphases added):Ezekiel 26:7 "For thus saith the Lord; Behold, I bring up against thee, O Sor, Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon from the north; he is a king of kings, with horses, and chariots, and horsemen, and a concourse of very many nations."This above verse from the LXX makes it fairly clear whose army these "many nations" comprise.Now, Ezekiel 26:10 -14:(10) "By reason of the multitude of his horses their dust shall cover thee, and by reason of the sound of his horsemen and the wheels of his chariots thy walls shall be shaken, when he enters into thy gates, as one entering into a city from the plain."(11) "With the hoofs of his horses they shall trample all thy streets; he shall slay thy people with the sword, and shall bring down to the ground the support of thy strength."Here we have the pronoun "switch" in a single sentence. The antecedent to "they" is, of course, the "horsemen" mentioned in the previous verse. Unless, that is, one would prefer to think that Alexander trampled the streets of Tyre with Nebuchadnezzar's horses.(12) "And he shall prey upon thy power, and plunder thy substance, and shall cast down thy walls, and break down thy pleasant houses; and he shall cast thy stones and thy timber and thy dust into the midst of the sea."Here we still have the pronoun "he" in the description of Tyre being thrown into the sea. It has often been said that this concept (of throwing a city into the sea) is so unique that Ezekiel could have never thought of it had it not been genuine prophecy. And yet, +/- 100 yrs before Ezekiel's prophecy, Esarhaddon (just before he barricaded Tyre) claims to have done exactly that to the city of Sidon (located on the seacoast c. 20 mi. north of Tyre).

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(I am Esarhaddon), the conqueror of Sidon, which lies amidst the sea, (he) who has leveled all its urban buildings - I even tore up and cast into the sea its wall and its foundation, destroying completely the very place it was built upon.

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"Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament", James B. Pritchard, ed., Princeton Univ. Press, 1969;pg 290; from Prism B (i 9-54)

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(13) "And he shall destroy the multitude of thy musicians, and the sound of thy psalteries shall be heard no more.(14) "And I will make thee a bare rock; thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more; for I the Lord have spoken, saith the Lord."Thus, it appears that insular Tyre (the island with it's harbors) was a, if not the major part of the city long before and during the time of Ezekiel's utterances. Also, even though some of the outlying suburban sprawl of Phoenician Tyre may no longer be there, it would appear that a hugely significant portion of the Tyre of Ezekiel's time (both island and mainland) has been profusely built upon and populated (by the Greeks and Romans as well as in modern times).Also, the semantics game with pronouns and ambiguous metaphors appears to be nothing more than that, i.e., a game for those who desperately desire to have their religion validated.Namaste'Amlodhi

Hi buzsaw,

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buzsaw

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. . . don't see how that diminishes the prophecy since Neb did his part and the others did theirs.

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But it does. As demonstrated in my previous post, Alexander was nowhere included in this prophecy. That extrapolation was formulated purely out of necessity and propped up only by a transparently disingenuous abuse of the text.Yet, as if that weren't enough, Alexander did not totally destroy the island city of Tyre, much less scrape it clean and throw it into the sea. And since at least a major portion of the city was located on the island, this would have been necessary to fulfill Ezekiel's prophecy (again, provided that Alexander had been included in said prophecy to begin with).

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But Tyre is wholly an island, being built up nearly in the same way as Aradus; and it is connected with the mainland by a mole, which was constructed by Alexander when he was besieging it; and it has two harbours, one that can be closed and the other, called "Aegyptian" harbour, open. The houses here, it is said, have many stories, even more than the houses at Rome, and on this account, when an earthquake took place, it lacked but little of utterly wiping out the city. The city was also unfortunate when it was taken by siege by Alexander; but it overcame such misfortunes and restored itself both by means of the seamanship of its people, in which the Phoenicians in general have been superior to all peoples of all times, and by means of their dye-houses for purple; for the Tyrian purple has proved itself by far the most beautiful of all . . . Such, then, are the Tyrians.

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The Geography of Strabo (c. 63 b.c - 24 a.d.)published in the Loeb Classical Library, 1932

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Much as you don't want to hear it, a correct reading of the text, supported by the witness of the LXX, and the physical evidence, makes it evident to anyone without a vested interest, that Ezekiel was writing about Nebuchadnezzar's army and only Nebuchadnezzar's army; that Ezekiel was a man like any other, and as it happened out, he was wrong.Namaste'Amlodhi

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buzsaw

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You like to microspect the prophecies so as to eliminate the whole picture to your advantage . . .

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(chuckle) . . . Now you're sounding desperate. I've shown you (with explicit examples) how these words are to be understood, how the LXX translators understood them and how Jeremiah understood them.Your responses thus far have been devoid of substance and unworthy of consideration.

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buzsaw

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I've stated that a fishing village is there. Is there more today?

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Is your memory that short? Go back to page 2 and review that post.Amlodhi

kendemyer,As frustrating as buzsaw's disingenuous tactics can be at times, his efforts still consistently exceed yours.You have more than you are apparently able to respond to in the "Bible Archaeology - An introduction" thread; Message 26.I don't think buz needs you to hold his hand.Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 03-13-2004]

Ken, I like your LXX comment just fine. I'm just not a big fan of drive-by assertions.Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 03-14-2004]

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Originally posted by kendemyer

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I did, however, wish to make a correction. I do not believe there is any real evidence that shows the MT was closer to the original text than the LXX.

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I am glad you recognized that. Also, you really should try to access some more scholarly material and reduce the number of website blurbs. I'm not so much interested in what someone says as in why they're saying it.Josephus, for instance:

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Originally posted by kendemyer

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Let JOSEPHUS, a Jewish historian of the first century, answer:

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' From Artaxerxes (Malachi's time) until our time everything
has been recorded but has not been deemed worthy of like credit
with what has preceded, because the exact succession of prophets
ceased. But what faith we have placed in our own writings is
evident by our conduct; FOR though so long a time has now passed,
NO ONE HAS DARED TO ADD ANYTHING TO THEM, OR ALTER ANYTHING IN
THEM' (Contra Apion, Whiston's Josephus, p.609).

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If you will turn to the introduction, pg XIV, in your copy of Whiston's translation, you will see that Josephus both spoke and wrote in Greek. Also, regardless of whether or not he thought anything had ever been altered, a comparison of his quotations shows that it was the LXX that he drew from for his writings.

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The Greek language was, at that time, understood by most persons of even an ordinary degree of intelligence. It was read and spoken commonly among a large portion of (Josephus') people. The Septuagint translation of the bible had rendered it venerable in their eyes, and must have obliged the priestly order, to which Josephus belonged, to cultivate it with more than ordinary diligence.

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"The Complete Works of Josephus", William Whiston trans., Kregel Pub., Grand Rapids, Mich.

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Thus, the very source you are arguing from refutes you. Josephus, (at the time he wrote Contra Apion), either knew of and used only the LXX translation, or, he knew both the LXX and the Hebrew text (of his time) and used the LXX anyway.

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Originally posted by kendemyer

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Often overlooked is that the law, prophets, and writings,
which were accepted by Jesus (Luke 24:44), formed the BASIS FOR
THE LEGAL PRACTICES of the Jewish nation. These religious
writings had NATIONAL IMPACT equal to Britain's Magna Carta...a powerful force in PRESERVING the unimpeachability of Scripture.

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And yet, in the NT when this unimpeachable scripture is referenced, the overwhelming majority of the quotes are taken from the LXX. [Also, as will be shown with the DSS, some of the quotations in the NT are thought to be taken from an early Hebrew/Aramaic text which closely parallels the LXX]. Again, your own sources refute you.A general rule of textual criticism is that (among other considerations, such as difficulty of wording) the shorter recension is more likely to be closer to the original. This is because, historically, scribes seem far more prone to add glosses than to omit existing material.The relevant book in regard to the prophecy concerning Tyre is Ezekiel. The LXX recension of Ezekiel indicates that it was translated from a shorter Hebrew vorlage (source text). The additional length of the masoretic text of Ezekiel is attributed to the use of parallel phrasing, exegetical (or explanatory) phrases, as well as the addition of new material.While the Qumran documents are (with rare and minute exception) the oldest extant documentation we have, a study of the scrolls themselves (as opposed to apologist websites) has indicated to scholars that the Hebrew writings were subject to an ongoing period of development. The LXX represents a "snapshot" view of what was likely an early Hebrew vorlage.Several various text types are represented in the DSS writings, they include:1. Proto-masoretic
2. Septuagint
3. Samaritan (Pentateuch only)
4. Texts with a unique style of spelling and grammar.
5. Texts that do not follow the style of the other four groups.[4 & 5 from Dr. Emanuel Tov, Editor-in-Chief of the Dead Sea Scrolls Publication Project, Hebrew University & James C. VanderKam, Professor of Hebrew Scriptures & co-editor "Ency. of the Dead Sea Scrolls"]Most interesting for the textual study of this period, is the occasional mixing of texts. For instance, in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the text is mostly proto-masoretic, albeit with differences in various spellings. However, there are also over nineteen hundred variants in these texts that agree with the LXX rather than the masoretic.In addition, while this is all very interesting, the position I presented to buzsaw does not rest on the information provided by the LXX. Not only should it be apparent to anyone sans motive that the pronomial antecedents and adjectival phrases should not be ripped from their context, but I also provided references to parallel (masoretic text) bible passages where the definitive use of these terms was clearly demonstrated. The fact that the LXX translators showed no interest in retaining buz's two ambiguous words is just additional corroboration.P.S.

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kendemyer:

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The Massorites (sic). . .

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The history of the masoretic tradition is a much more twisted road than the simplistic picture your website blurb has painted.

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Corruptions as well as various forms of scribal intervention (changes, corrections, etc.) are thus evidenced in all textual witnesses of the Hebrew bible, including the group of texts now called the (medieval) Masoretic Text as well as in its predecessors, the proto-masoretic texts. Those who are unaware of the details of textual criticism may think that one should not expect any corruptions in the masoretic or any other sacred text, since these texts were meticulously written and transmitted. Indeed, the scrupulous approach of the soferim and Masoretes is manifest in their counting of all the letters and words of the masoretic text. Therefore, it is seemingly unlikely that they would have corrupted the text or even corrected it. Yet, in spite of their precision, even the manuscripts which were written and vocalized by the Masoretes contain corruptions, changes, and erasures. More importantly, the Masoretes, and before them the soferim , acted in a relatively late stage of the development of the biblical text, and before they had put their meticulous principles into practice, the text already contained corruptions and had been tampered with during that earlier period when scribes did not as yet treat the text with such reverence.

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["Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible", Emanuel Tov, pg. 9, 2nd revised ed., Fortress Press]

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Namaste'Amlodhi

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buzsaw:

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Why don't you simply answer my question. Is there more than a fishing village/town on the peninsula today?

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Because I'm really not interested in playing schoolyard games.Nevertheless, it sure looks like it to me. But why are you trying to weasel this down to the "peninsula"? The island was (at least) a major part of the city as well, does it look like a scraped rock to you?Amlodhi

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buzsaw

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but no, you like to micro cross examine to the Nth degree

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Actually, I haven't had to cross examine anything, "micro" or otherwise. My job has been relatively easy:1. I haven't had to pry pronouns away from their antecedents in order to force a verse to conform to my agenda.2. I haven't had to studiously ignore one verse in the bible, lest its clear usage of the same terms prevent me from contorting the sense of another.3. I haven't had to throw my septuagint out the window.4. I haven't had to interpolate that someone not alluded to in the text likely relatively did something later.5. And I haven't had to think up prejudicial adjectives like, "micro", "little (fault)" and "weak" to fill up my posts with in the hope that no one will notice that I don't have a credible argument.I've had only to read the verses in their grammatically correct context, and compare scripture with scripture for the proper understanding of terminology.You're free to continue your protestations here if you wish. But unless I see something more substantial than this special pleading, I will consider the matter closed.Namaste'Amlodhi