God says this, and God says that

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Why would God not leave physical evidence? This you've asserted but never explained? God heals the sick? hmm.... there ought to be evidence. You reduce your God to no more than a phantom.

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I have your evidence though you will deny it and explain it away. A friend of mine shattered his hip snowboarding, this was the second season in a row he had done so. So he was back in traction in the hospital to have the same hip repaired again. The elders of the church came in to pray for him and the very next day when the doctors took more x-rays the hip was completely healed. Not even traces of the fractures, completely and painlessly healed.I was a counsellor at a bible camp one year, and our counsellors suddenly began to fall ill. Before we knew it we barely had enough staff to continue. We all got together for a prayer meeting, within an hour of this meeting counsellors who had been extremely sick started coming out of the cabins in perfect health.One winter when I was young I remember we had a propane furnace in the little trailer our family was living in. At the beggining of the winter when my dad checked the guage on the propane tank he found that it was nearly empty. My parents were in financial trouble at the time barely finding enough money to keep a few groceries in the cupboards. So unable to afford to fill the propane tank my father just didn't bother looking at the rest of the winter. It was one of the more brutal winters I recall being -40* celcius most of the winter. Our furnace kept on going and going. There is no way that the propane should even have lasted a month let alone the whole winter. Well like the woman and the oil that propane just kept flowing and our furnace kept running, ran all winter. Didn't run out until dad made enough money in the spring to buy some propane.This is God caring for his faithful. Healing the sick, performing modern day miracles. I got lots more johnny if you want pages and pages of miraculous things I have seen God do.Note these are not second hand stories, all personal experience.------------------
saved by grace

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Stereotype? Funk, everything is a stereotype if you break it down. Would you object to "Christians are honest, hard-working people?" Well, that is a stereotype too. Guess we'll ditch that. You cannot talk about groups without stereotyping, its just that people only complain when they don't like what is said. A stereotype is a concept used to think, and speak, in general terms. The trick is to not apply the general concept to individuals. That is when it causes trouble.

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I get mad at any stereotype, and I don't deny the fact that there are some people who proffess to Christianity that portray these characteristics. Even the honest hard working idea is wrong we aren't all honest and hard working. The thing is that we are still human, still tempted in the same ways and we are not perfect. It is insulting to read most of the stuff on your site though I will drop it as it serves no real purpose to continue along this line. Though I find it difficult to do so, I wanted you to admit to how blatantly insulting that site is.------------------
saved by grace

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Personal experience for you. Second hand for me. If you could document anything I'd be interested.

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That's fair John, I didn't think of that when I was posting. I could see if there was any record from the hospital of the most miraculaous of those. Actually just talked to that guy the other day. I do recall though that the doctors were not pleased about the whole thing. That kind of thing doesn't sit well with the sciency types.The other two examples would be hard to document. But these are some of the evidences I personally have of God's hand at work. There are many more but there's not to much point in filling this whole site with these things. This is why a few details that are not very well explained cannot shake my faith. God has left his mark in and around my life, I cannot deny that. It's not that I don't listen to your counter-evidence, just that it holds no weight against the personal evidence. Does that make ANY sense to you?------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by Chara:
As an imperfect parent, and having been a teenager, I know full well that there are times when a parent is talking but the child is not listening. Could it be perhaps that it is not that God is not "talking" to John, but that he is not listening?

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John, don't get upset here. I have heard you say that you have sought God and it appears to you that He is not there. That is fair. It is what you perceive. It does not necessarily mean that your conclusion is correct. You said previously that you used to be bitter, but now you just don't care. (Is that a correct paraphrase of your comment?) Is it possible that you have put up the wall? That God is, after all, speaking, but you can't hear? Not asking you to agree .... just to consider the possibility.

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And John, I apologize for the things that have been done to you, or the things that weren't done for you and I ask for your forgiveness.

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I didn't see a response to this post, though I may have missed it, I just noticed that I've missed quite a bit on this thread. However if I take Chara correctly here I think she was apologizing to you John on behalf of the body of Christ.
From your web site I gather that we (the body of Christ) have wronged you over the years obviously more than once, as a member of this body I would like to ask your forgiveness as well. Our Lord Jesus, I'm sure is greatly saddened by what we have done to you, and how we have portrayed him to you.------------------
saved by grace

Amen and AmenI agree with that for sure. I was wondering how to address the earning faith thing. Glad you said something.------------------
saved by grace

Amen and AmenI agree with that for sure. I was wondering how to address the earning faith thing. Glad you said something.------------------
saved by grace

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We do each have a certain amount of tendency toward faith but I believe we can supplement our faith through diligent study, through prayer, by magnifying our callings, and striving to be more Christ-like. This concept is similar to the parable of the ten talents, in Matthew 25. (I am perplexed that all of you disagree because it seems like an axiom to me).

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It was the word earn that threw me Gene. Our faith grows as we spend time in prayer and study. The longer you walk with the Lord the more you know him. But I believe it's still given to us. I just have a problem with earning anything with God. Hope I don't sound like I'm attacking you Gene, it's just what I believe. ------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by Chara:

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Originally posted by David unfamous:
God seems to talk a lot in the Bible. At times he seems to go on and on and not shut up.

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When did He stop talking? Was it just before we had recording technologies like tape cassettes, or film cameras, or is there a passage in the Bible that explains why he doesn't chat anymore?

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In Hebrews 1:1,2 : God, who at different times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son ....

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Just making sure Chara's little nugget of wisdom doesn't get lost here. This is the best answer to the original question that I have seen.------------------
saved by grace[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-13-2002]

Sorry John I lost this post, didn't see it. This has been a fairly heated fast moving thread. I've missed quite a few posts had to go back and read through what I've missed.

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I was talking about serving this King out of a personal desire to do so. Not because he commanded but because you have chosen him as your king and want to serve him.
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Why does he get so pissed, according to legend, if one does not want to serve?

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I'm not sure what you're talking about here. God gets angry at sin yes! Even more so when those who are his servants disobey him. However to those who serve him do so out of free-will. Not just because they live within his borders. This was one of the contrasts I was getting at between the King and earthly kings. God punishes us for disobeying him yes, but out of love not anger. He seeks to correct us not to get revenge.

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By your own logic that's not a legitimate point because Crowley is a man, then how could he pick you up and heal your spirit. I was talking about God.
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By my logic? You must be very confused. You read a book or heard the someone preach ( or many people ) and felt a feeling that your soul had been repaired or something to that effect. I read Diary of a Drug Fiend and felt the same. Both cases are identical, except for the book. It isn't my logic, it is yours that validates Crowley.

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And what does Crowley being a man have to do with anything? The critical element is the use of the emotional reaction as justification.

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I was refering to our discussion about free-will, when I had used the analogy of feeding my cat. You had said as soon as God knows what you will choose it's no longer free will. I replied saying, so if I put down food for my cat knowing that he will choose to eat it I have taken away his ability to choose if he will eat it or not. At which point you responded saying, no I could not affect my cat's free will because I was not God.By this logic a man cannot have the same effect on another man as God can.Now for one I was not speaking of an emotional reaction to a book. I was talking about a change in my very nature. Brought about by God. What you were saying about Crowley is an emotional response to a book.
I know this is not put well I am struggling to form thought to words (yet again I am frustrated by the limitation of language). I'm saying how can you equate a feeling you got from Crowley's book to a change in nature brought about by God. It's not even in the same league. Arrgghh this is not what I wanted to say. Hopefully your examination and questioning will help me to properly explain what I'm getting at.------------------
saved by grace

This conversation is weighing very heavy on my heart right now. Though yes I do find John's site offensive, Gene I find the lack of love in your posts lately equally disturbing. I'm not attacking either of you. Please don't take it as such. I know I also have responded in anger in this forum. How can we expect each other to listen to our posts if we continuosly slander each other and bicker. It's like a screaming match. If you are both yelling no-one is listening. If no-one is listening then nothing is being accomplished. This kind of stubborn bickering just leads to anger, not wisdom. When Forgiven appeared on this board he said "come let us reason". If we all put down our pride we will be able to speak with much more wisdom. I mean no offence to anyone. The basis of my faith is love. I believe this to be the basis of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Let's put the weapons down, and reason together, this war amongst each other will serve only to drive each other further away from what we are trying to convey. Maybe it is not my place to say this, and if it wasn't then I ask your forgiveness. I hope I did not sound judgemental.------------------
saved by grace

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i don't believe God punishes us at all, whether saint or sinner... the word "discipline" actually means "to train"... that's what God does... punishment implies judgement, it implies retrobution, it implies vengenance... there will be a time and place for those things, but as far as *I* (personally) am concerned, Jesus was judged, he was punished, God's wrath was poured out on him FOR ME... God will never ever never ever punish me for anything i do, think, or say... he will allow the consequences of those things in my life, but as the means to an end, the training in holiness he knows i need...

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not arguing semantics i hope, merely giving my understanding of his word

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Thanx for this piece of wisdom Forgiven, I never thought of this, that God just allows us to suffer the consequences of our actions, that the actual punishment is self inflicted, by a bad decision. Then God uses these things to his purpose on my life. I was just thinking of the book of James (one of my favourite) chapter 1: 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.Paul says this almost exact thing in Romans. Anyways thank you Forgiven.------------------
saved by grace

We are all very good at figuring out what other peoples problems are, let's try looking at our own.------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
We are all very good at figuring out what other peoples problems are, let's try looking at our own.

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To tell you the truth, I'm not sure if robinrohan was joking or not. It is a very odd thing to say, that I don't know how to believe. Is belief something you can learn like math or auto-mechanic-ing?

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The more I think about that the more I wonder how you can say someone doesn't know how to believe? No offence Robinrohan, it's just spinning my head in circles here. I can see saying someone doesn't know what to believe. I don't remember learning *how* to believe.I guess what I meant by my other comment was that it's easy to see where other peoples failings may be, but it is much more difficult to see your own.------------------
saved by grace

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Where are you getting lost? Why are you not paying attention? Why are you focusing on this childish "well you do it too" argument-- oops, sorry, fallacy? There are perfectly good analogies that have gone unanswered. For example, why don't you explain why that kid advocating invisible blocks is not like you advocating an invisible God?

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Theists are constantly told they have to prove God exists, (in the midst of intellectual slander and accusations of foolishness; these things are commonly directed at theists) while atheist/agnostics for some reason don't have to provide evidence of their faith. I can see why he wants you to admit you are arguing from a faith based position, because it levels the playing field. I tend to agree that if you can't prove God does not exist you cannot try and force a theist to prove that he does.How do you know those blocks aren't there? Obviously the child can see them. Maybe you just can't see them. Can you prove that those blocks aren't there?------------------
saved by grace[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-15-2002]

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Why do you think that the people who make a claim for the existence of a thing are asked to provide evidence? Put it in terms you know. Let's see, opening the front door. You walk to the door, turn the knob and pull. If you want more detail you can start with what you've got and see where that gets you. Pull out a screw driver and take the knob apart. Look around. Take it apart some more. Pull out the springs and the pins. Now, lets apply the principle of "prove other stuff is not responsible" Before believing that springs and levers operate the door, did you prove that mind reading martians aren't remote controlling the door? Did you prove that metaphysical monkeys's aren't playing with the door? Did you prove that the door moved and not the whole world around it? See what I am getting at? I can make up an infinite number of things that you would have to disprove before concluding that the springs and thingies in the door-knob move the latch. I'm sure you'll protest, but that is how it goes.

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But if I walk up to the door, knock, and it's opened up for me, I do not even have to touch the door knob. I can enter in and never even have had to worry about the mechanics of a latch.

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Why not? Think about it. If I told you I had a 40 carat diamond, you'd ask me to prove it, yes? And I could do that easily by showing you the diamond. But suppose you set out to disprove that I have the diamond. You frisk me. No diamond. You search my house. No diamond. You search my yard. No diamond. You ask my friends. No diamond. You search the city in which I live. The country. The whole planet. No diamond. So you ask, "where is the diamond?" And I reply, "Its hidden and since you can't disprove it I don't even have to show it to you." All of this with no evidence that the diamond exists at all. But it hasn't been disproven either!!!!! The situation quickly becomes absurd. How long would you look before concluding that there is no diamond? How long before you challenged that man to produce evidence that the diamond exists at all? It is common sense really.

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I think your first analogy was much better than this one. A diamond you should be able to easily prove, it being a physical object and all. If the diamond is produced I cannot deny it's existance. Evidence of God has to be evidence of the spiritual affecting the physical, making some sort of impact of the physical. Well now this can be denied, the person can then come up with another possibility in their mind to explain away the very evidence that they seek. This is where the absurdity begins. So the diamond analogy doesn't hold that well.

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So you argue that belief in the invisible blocks is reasonable? Would you believe in the invisible blocks?

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Why would a kid make a claim to blocks that he knew did not exist? Why would s/he hold to said claim under scrutiny?
There must be some reason for the claim.------------------
saved by grace