Can god heal the sick?

Parasomnium ......suffering is noble, it breeds character. If God were to remove suffering and grace us with it's presence all that would be left is sycophantic worshippers. God doesn't want that. God wants us to evolve to his level of consciousness as equals which is why we were given free will.God already created beings that were evolved and interacted with them but made one mistake cos lucifer who was almost an equal thought he knew better...uh, wrong, so he got the boot and was given dominion over the earth and possibly the universe which just lends more creedence to God's non interventionist policy on human development cos he doesn't make the same mistake twiceGod needs company to justify it's existence. Pre big bang when there was only one thing (God) and it was only relative to itself it thought "God, I'm bored" I think I'm gonna create me a universe and sum life to populate it and after his first mistake with lucifer, he decided to still give us intelligence and a free will then stand back and let us evolve so that hopefully one day we'll find it (God) and we can be perfect together instead of God just being the only one...All that we have learned just shows us how much more there is to learn. Tell me about the singularity pre big bang or about dark matter and energy or even try and get sum consensus on precreation and life on other planets ???we don't know as much as you think and certainly not enough to take God out of the equation...

Getting way off Topic. But if you start a thread I'll be gald to respond. The situation you describe though is not related to good and evil, IMHO.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

O, please! Tell that to all those who are suffering fates worse than you can imagine. Tell them they should be grateful to be allowed to suffer, tell them you admire their character. With respect, but this is utter crap! Of course, I should have known. Free will again. Listen, free will and an omniscient god don't sit together well. I'm surprised he makes them even once. I always thought God was supposed to be perfect. Now I hear he makes mistakes. Well, you learn something new everyday, I guess. Tut-tut, I bet they didn't teach you that in Sunday school. You know, there have been times when saying that could considerably lower your life expectancy. What is this? Some sort of DIY theology? Now you are making some sense at last. You don't know the first thing about how much I think we know. I do not pretend that we know everything, or even much. But we do know enough to take God out of at least some of the equations. And guess what? Without God, those equations work even better.

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

jar,I fail to see why this is "way off Topic". The concepts of good and evil do have some bearing on the morality of God healing someone or not. Even the 'why' question is connected with it. I'd rather you'd respond in this thread. There are too many threads already, in my opinion.

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

OkayWell, IMHO, the examplle that you gave is not really good and evil. One of the problems is the lack of precision in so many English word (also one of the strengths of English as well but that is yet another topic).For me, Hilter's Holocaust was EVIL. The Killing Fields of Cambodia was EVIL.What you described was good and bad, and as you rightly stated, whether it was good or bad depends on your perspective.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I know from personal experience what suffering did for my character perhaps a better example might be Nelson Mandela or Jesus...You could argue that needless suffering of innocents does nothing for their character but in an afterlife they will be rewarded or not as the case maybe, the lesson in character building is for those who continue living...Why does free will and an omniscient God not sit well together ???If God was perfect there wouldn't be evil in the world. God is perfect in his domain but here, well just look around...lower life expectancy for expressing theological opinions that go against the mainstream show why fundamental religious attitudes need readjustment to a more personal oneDIY theology...hell yeah it's all bout ME (MY Evolution) knowledge of self...if I wasn't making sense you wouldn't even be able to respond

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You don't know the first thing about how much I think we know

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Do you ???Here's a little test to find out. Which equations work better without God and which ones don't ???

Since I think there is no such thing as an 'afterlife', for me all that remains is that "needless suffering of innocents does nothing for their character". Did you know that some victims of child abuse become child molesters themselves? So much for character building... There have been whole threads devoted to that subject. I suggest we don't go into it here. If you wish, we can discuss it in the appropriate thread(s). You really need to think these things through a little. Take that first statement: I assume you would say that there is evil in the world. Then, by your own reasoning, God cannot be perfect. Now look at the second statement: "God is perfect in his domain..." Surely you're not saying that God is confined to his quarters, are you? I thought God was supposed to be omnipresent. And after that, they could perhaps readjust a little bit further, to a more scientific world view. I was merely hinting at the fact that you are spouting rather unconventional theological acabadabra. I can respond to nonsense, can't I? You should read more carefully what I said. Yes, I know everything about how much I think we know. You don't know my thoughts, I do. With God: "If you get sick, you should pray to God to get well."
Without God: "If you get sick, you should get medical treatment to get well."
A few centuries of medical science has shown that the last one works a lot better.

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

Well, I admit it's hard to see those things from the other perspective, but I think they're still man-made. Not EVIL, just very, very, VERY BAD.Sorry to be so brief, but I have to go. Talk to you later.

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

...yes i am saying God confined his physical self to his quarters where he is perfectly happy, his omnipresent self however can be sensed pretty much everywherewith regards to suffering I see it and it builds my character because I choose to let it. I could just as easily choose to not let it and go about causing more suffering......isn't free will great there is a price to pay for it though and like everything else you pay when you checkoutI know I'm at odds with a lot of fundamental religious doctrine but a lot of fundamental religious thought is against God and the teachings of his many prophets. It seems you get a lot of your concepts of God from false prophets. It is after all the 21st century since Jesus was among us don't you think it's about time for some revisionism...and who better to do it than the individual that it pertains to, the source material is all there we don't need priests and leaders telling us what to think or what God thinks anymore...see there's that free will thing againgotta love it...

Could you tell me what God's physical self is made of? And where are his quarters? And how do you know? Well, that's what 'omnipresent' means, thank you for stating the obvious. But how is it that not everybody senses him then? Why can't we train our scientific instruments on him and measure his presence directly and unequivocally? If that is the case then you've just ruled out the causative connection between suffering and character building: now all of a sudden it's you who decides what your character is going to be like. Please, get your act together. Why must I pay for something that's free? You have an odd conception of the word 'fundamental', I must say. If the fundament is wrong, the whole structure is at risk. I think that if 'fanatic', 'hardline' and 'narrow-minded' are among the words you are looking for, I would agree with you. Yes, well, I've heard that one before. As soon as someone points out the inconsistencies between the various religious doctrines, one of them ends up coming from 'false prophets'. Tell me, how do you know your information isn't false? You need to catch up on things, because that revisionism started some centuries ago, with the Enlightenment. The result is called 'science'. I suggest you study all the source material, not just an odd haphazard collection of myths from a small tribal desert community of a few thousand years ago. You could start by looking at the sacred texts of other cultures, then look at secular philosophy, then look at scientific discoveries, then use your own brain a bit and then maybe draw some conclusions.

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

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Could you tell me what God's physical self is made of? And where are his quarters? And how do you know?

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Ask God yourself, no free lunches round here bud...do your own homework,

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But how is it that not everybody senses him then? Why can't we train our scientific instruments on him and measure his presence directly and unequivocally?

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Everybody senses God it's just a lot of people are in denial...what instrument would you suggest using ???

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If that is the case then you've just ruled out the causative connection between suffering and character building: now all of a sudden it's you who decides what your character is going to be like. Please, get your act together.

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so who decides what your character is like...the easter bunny ???

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Why must I pay for something that's free?

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It's free in this lifetime beyond that there is a price...you don't read too well...huh???

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You have an odd conception of the word 'fundamental', I must say. If the fundament is wrong, the whole structure is at risk. I think that if 'fanatic', 'hardline' and 'narrow-minded' are among the words you are looking for, I would agree with you.

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quibble over semantics then...

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Yes, well, I've heard that one before. As soon as someone points out the inconsistencies between the various religious doctrines, one of them ends up coming from 'false prophets'. Tell me, how do you know your information isn't false?

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faith in God and knowledge of self

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You need to catch up on things, because that revisionism started some centuries ago, with the Enlightenment. The result is called 'science'.

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oh really ??? tell me something I don't know

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I suggest you study all the source material, not just an odd haphazard collection of myths from a small tribal desert community of a few thousand years ago. You could start by looking at the sacred texts of other cultures, then look at secular philosophy, then look at scientific discoveries, then use your own brain a bit and then maybe draw some conclusions

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I already have and these are my conclusions, whose brain do you think I've been using???cut and paste quoting bores me so in one paragraph or less can you get to the point of what it is you're trying to school me up on ???It seems you're searching for answers when you know them already, use the force Luke...

I'm trying to make you see that you make all kinds of unsupported assertions and that you interlace them with inconsistencies. On top of that, you are being evasive as soon as you are asked to provide some substantive comment for your blanket statements. This is not a very productive attitude in any discussion, and it doesn't raise my hopes for this particular one very much.{edited to correct spelling of 'inconsistencies'}This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 05-05-2004 06:52 AM

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

...well isn't that the pot calling the kettle a fishDoes parasomnium mean you have trouble sleeping ???you really should try praying apparently it works but not all the time just to hedge our bets I'll pray for you as well... No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.proofgodexists.org/scientific_study_of_prayer_under.htmI still say the onus is on you to use science to disprove God. I'd settle for these much talked about equations you were on about earlier or forever hold your piecepeace

No, I'm not an insomniac, if that is the word you're looking for. If it makes you happy... It is logically impossible to prove a negative. Read a book on logic. You do realise that 'taking God out of the equation' is an expression, don't you? Or should I fear you are so naive as to expect real equations from me?{edited to correct typo}This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 05-05-2004 07:06 AM

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

parasomnia ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-smn-)
n.
Any of several disorders that frequently interfere with sleep, occurring especially among children and including sleepwalking, night terrors, and bed-wetting.um also umm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m, m)
interj.
Used to express doubt or uncertainty or to fill a pause when hesitating in speakingumOm \Om\, interj. & n. [Also Aum, Um.] m. A mystic syllable or ejaculation used by Hindus and Buddhists in religious rites, -- orig. among the Hindus an exclamation of assent, like Amen, then an invocation, and later a symbol of the trinity formed by Vishnu, Siva, and Brahma.

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'taking God out of the equation' is an expression

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an expression of what...doubt, uncertainty ???

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we do know enough to take God out of at least some of the equations. And guess what? Without God, those equations work even better.

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Which equations ???BTW can you recommend any good books on logic preferably ones you've read ???Have you heard the one about the dyslexic, agnostic insomniac who lies awake all night wondering if there is such a thing as Dog...