Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,924 Year: 4,181/9,624 Month: 1,052/974 Week: 11/368 Day: 11/11 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How do Christians deal with the violence in the Bible?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 14 of 221 (227780)
07-30-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
07-28-2005 7:10 PM


Rahvin writes:
Specifically, how do Christians feel about violence supposedly committed directly by or at the command of God?
My own belief is this. God has given us free will as told metaphorically in Genesis when we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
As individuals and as nations we make choices. When we live our lives according to God's will for us things go relatively well until we are affected by others who are not living out that basic dictum. I'm just suggesting that it is natural law that causes people and nations to suffer. The further away they move from God's command to love and serve others the more we suffer as a nation or as an individual.
God's will is that we should love him by truly loving all that is good and hating evil, and that we love our neighbour. I suggest that we are all born with the seed of that in our hearts but that we are also born with the ability to reject love and embrace self. None of us accept it perfectly but I suppose it is a matter of degree. A few seem to go completely the other way and love evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 07-28-2005 7:10 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 07-30-2005 12:32 PM GDR has replied
 Message 28 by Coragyps, posted 07-30-2005 8:34 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 43 by nator, posted 07-31-2005 10:15 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 16 of 221 (227792)
07-30-2005 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
07-30-2005 12:32 PM


sidelines writes:
So what freewill did the firstborns have in this passage?
I'm obviously not a literalist so my belief would be that it is pointing out again that the further away a nation moves from God's plan of love and service the more the people of the nation suffer including the innocents.
It's a bit like the guy who goes out and gambles away the grocery money. It was the guy who sinned, (or screwed up if you like), but it is also his wife and kids who will pay the price.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 07-30-2005 12:32 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by sidelined, posted 07-30-2005 12:59 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 18 of 221 (227800)
07-30-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by sidelined
07-30-2005 12:59 PM


sidelined writes:
Then you admit freewill in the context of the bible is not universal?
I don't fully understand the question but I believe we all have free will that we exercise as individuals but in the exercising of our own free will we can negatively affect others in the same way that we can be negatively affected by someone else's poor choices.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by sidelined, posted 07-30-2005 12:59 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 07-30-2005 1:40 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 25 of 221 (227898)
07-30-2005 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by sidelined
07-30-2005 1:40 PM


sidelined writes:
This is the point.A freewill that is subject to others is not freewill is it?
I don't see it as a case of it being subject to, but of being affected by. Back to my example of the gambling father who lost the grocery money. He exercised his free will and chose to gamble. His choice however affected his family.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 07-30-2005 1:40 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by sidelined, posted 07-30-2005 8:33 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 47 of 221 (228083)
07-31-2005 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by nator
07-31-2005 10:15 AM


schrafinator writes:
So, is secular Sweden living by God's law, as they have one of the best standards of living in the world?
Well in the first place there is more to having a joyful life than material standard of living. In another post I said that loving God means loving goodness and hating evil. If as a nation Sweden celebrates a genuine love of goodness and their neighbour then why not.
This message has been edited by GDR, 07-31-2005 06:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 07-31-2005 10:15 AM nator has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 221 (228260)
07-31-2005 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by General Nazort
07-31-2005 8:33 PM


Re: just a question
General Nazort writes:
Why wouldn't God have the right to do whatever he wants with what he and he alone created?
Of course God has the right to do whatever he wants. However, some how I don't think that God is overly concerned about his rights, but He is concerned with what is right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by General Nazort, posted 07-31-2005 8:33 PM General Nazort has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 70 of 221 (228572)
08-01-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by General Nazort
08-01-2005 5:57 PM


Re: just a question
rahvin writes:
I would say that God would hold Himself to a far higher moral standard even than He holds us to.
General Nazort writes:
Matthew 5:28: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Sounds like God holds us to the same standard that he holds himself to.
There is one of the reasons I am convinced as a Christian that we are to take the Bible as truth, but not as literal truth.
You read that statement literally that God holds us to the same standard as He holds himself. I don't have a problem with your literal reading of it, but I do have a problem with the truth that you get out of it.
I would strongly suggest that God does not hold Himself to any standard. He simply is the standard. In addition to that, if he were to literally hold us to that standard there is no reality whatsoever in salvation, because there ain't none of us coming even close to the standard.
It is simply a statement calling all of us to fullfill God's command of loving Him and loving our neighbour in all aspects of our lives, with the abilities and spiritual insights that we have been given. The Bible even qualifies that when we are told, that to whom much is given much is expected.
We should read the Bible for religious and philosophical truths. IMHO it isn't meant to be read as a newspaper or science text.
This message has been edited by GDR, 08-01-2005 03:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 5:57 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 7:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 80 of 221 (228923)
08-02-2005 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
08-02-2005 3:56 PM


Faith writes:
It's a cry to God to avenge them against their enemies, the Babylonians, for justice against those who had dealt with them unmercifully. A case of a call for "what goes around comes around" to put it most simplistically.
This hardly squares with love your enemies and turning the other cheek.
The big difference in any conflict where we are called on to kill others is the motivation. If it is for revenge I suggest that it is wrong. If it is to protect the freedoms of ourselves and others it may well be justified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 3:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 5:07 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 102 of 221 (228990)
08-02-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
08-02-2005 5:36 PM


Revenge
Faith writes:
However, I can't help but remark on this self-righteousness being expressed by all of you here. Matthew Henry's commentary says that the idea of the infants being dashed on the stones is a way of asking for the total annihilation of Babylon, leaving no one alive. In other words it has a meaning beyond the literal image. But just sticking to the literal image, if you had suffered great violence and loss at the hand of an enemy, wouldn't you desire the same to be done to the enemy that did this to you? Where's all this "holier-than-thou" coming from? All we protected people who haven't suffered such violence against us have the luxury of thinking we are above revenge it seems. Wait until it happens to you and then tell me you have perfect self-control and no desire whatever to go slaughter those who did it to you. Tell me that you would even be above hoping that God would punish them. In Christ we do have that strength, but it is nevertheless against our fallen nature and we have to work hard to cultivate it with God's help. Don't brag that you have that strength until you've been tested.
Regardless of how I or anyone else would act revenge is not God's way. That is very clear in the context of the Bible taken as a whole. Read this story about a man who I know something about. The two Robinsons in the story are my brothers. IMHO the Dale Lang n this story acted in the way that Christ would have him act.
Page not found - Anglican Journal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 5:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 9:41 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 103 of 221 (228992)
08-02-2005 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
08-02-2005 5:51 PM


faith writes:
So GDR, what does C.S. Lewis say about all this in "God in the Dock?"
I paged through the book and I can't find anything that is applicable to this converstion. Do you have something in mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 5:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 9:43 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 109 of 221 (229002)
08-02-2005 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
08-02-2005 9:48 PM


It isn't relative to this discussion. It is mainly about belief. The part that referred to "God in the Dock" is about the reversal from what Christianity has historically been and what it is now in modernity the view is that man is on the bench and God is in the dock. (On trial) The judgement concerns suffering in the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 9:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 5:06 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 111 of 221 (229125)
08-03-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
08-02-2005 6:54 PM


Re: One last thought
Faith writes:
Instead of arguing this let me just say that if you are attracted to Jesus Christ, the beautiful, the merciful, the good Jesus Christ, and you believe that He is God, then just give up all the questions and give yourself to Him. He is the Teacher. I try to answer complaints about God if I can but the bottom line is that people need His supernatural work in their lives. When you have that, everything begins to become clear. It isn't an intellectual thing, though, it's a giving of yourself on the premise of asking Him to forgive all your sins because of His sacrifice on the cross, and truly following Him. He'll show you whatver you need to know about the rest.
The thing is Faith, untold millions have given their lives to Christ, (including myself), and have come to quite different conclusions than you have.
Faith writes:
They got tested and passed the test.
I'm not clear what you mean when you make this statement, but it does make me feel very uncomfortable. God didn't cause this to happen to see if the Langs could pass some kind of evil test. (I don't think that you believe that.) God suffered with them and for them. It is part of the price we pay for having free will as opposed to being robots incapable of knowing either sorrow or joy.
I just don't see this life as a test. We make choices and the biggest choice of all is do we choose to live for our own needs, (Self), or do we choose to live for God and others.(Love) Out of curiosity did you read "The Great Divorce" by Lewis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 6:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 1:12 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 1:30 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 115 of 221 (229211)
08-03-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
08-03-2005 1:30 PM


Re: One last thought
Faith writes:
So then you don't believe that God tested Abraham's faith by commanding him to sacrifice his son?
Not literally I don't. I contend that it is metaphor for the fact that our children are not our's to own but a gift from God and that we are to acknowledge they are His and not ours.
As CK says, God doesn't have to test us. He knows our hearts better than we do ourselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 1:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Rahvin, posted 08-03-2005 1:48 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 2:08 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 121 of 221 (229308)
08-03-2005 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
08-03-2005 2:08 PM


Re: One last thought
Faith writes:
It's for us, not Himself. He does it to establish the point in Abraham's mind and especially ours reading about it, starting with teaching us that true faith is absolute surrender of everything we have and are to God. Absolute life and death surrender. It makes undeniably real the "acknowledging" that our children are His and not ours. If it's only a metaphor where's the life-and-death cutting edge of faith Christian martyrs have always been called to meet? I think it helps to cure us of a too-soft idea of faith to read about the martyrs. Missionary stories and biographies of other Christian greats are often good for the same reason.
It is undeniably real as a metaphor. As literal truth it portrays God as a judge that is prepared to inflict pain when none is necessary. We believe that Jesus is God incarnate. (You who have seen me have seen the Father.) Do you see anything that Christ taught that isn't a total repudiation of a literal interpretation of this particular OT story?
Please Faith do not compare people who martyr their own lives to protect freedom, goodness, the lives of their children and families, or the lives of others, to someone who would go ahead with killing their own child in the misguided notion that God told them to. Martyrdom is an act of love. The parable of Abraham if interpreted literally is anything but. God is Good --- All the Time. Not just when He feels like it.
Faith writes:
There are many things in the OT that must be taken literally if one is to fully appreciate the reality of other things, especially the redemption, the resurrection, the second coming.
God has given us wisdom. We are to use that wisdom to sort out what we take literally and what not to. The Bible has to be read in the context of the entire book and when taken in context. My opinion is that this story is metaphor, primarily for the reasons that I outlined in my first paragraph.
This message has been edited by GDR, 08-03-2005 01:13 PM
This message has been edited by GDR, 08-03-2005 01:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 2:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 3:52 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 124 of 221 (229321)
08-03-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
08-03-2005 3:52 PM


Re: One last thought
Faith writes:
I radically disagree with you, but we can cordially agree to disagree I'm sure.
That's fair.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 08-03-2005 3:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024