How do Christians deal with the violence in the Bible?

Specifically, how do Christians feel about violence supposedly committed directly by or at the command of God?Examples would be:

quote:

---

Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven

---

God destroys entire cities and all of their inhabitants for sexual immorality.

quote:

---

Genesis 19:8
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

---

Lot offers up his two virgin daughters for the angels to do with them as they would like.

quote:

---

Exodus 11:5
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

---

God kills all of the firstborn of Egypt, after purposefully "hardening the heart" of Pharaoh - He supposedly gave Himself the exuse He used to kill children.

quote:

---

Exodus 32:27-28
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

---

God orders the slaughter of 3000 men, women, and children because they worshipped an idol.

quote:

---

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

---

Apparently God created bad people for the express reason of being able to punish them for it by sending them to Hell.How do Christians, or even non-Christians feel about these things? There are more, and according to the Gospels, Jesus Himself wasn't much better (He didn't actually DO any killing or slaughter, He just threatened and warned of God's impending wrath).Were these actions moral? Does God's Will justify an act otherwise considered reprehensible, like the murder of children? Are these things even remotely compatable with the God who tells commands His followers to "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself?" What do various modern denominations believe about all of the violence perpetrated in God's name?Obviously, I reccomend this be put in the Faith and Belief forum. I'd also like us to try to remember that not all Christians are going to support or even believe in these actions, so let's try to avoid simple Christian-bashing and stick to the question of whether God's Will could morally justify an otherwise horrible act.

This is exactly my point, Faith. If terrorists blow up a city becasue we are "heathen sinners," we would roundly denounce it as a horrible, immoral act. If God does it, suddenly you think it's justified.So you believe that God's Will justifies otherwise evil actions? God can kill millions and still be considered loving and good? A warning to "do what I say or I'll kill you?" How is that moral? How is that representative of a good and loving God? What can possibly justify willingly giving up your own children for rape?! How does this justify the murder of millions of children? If some group enslaved my hypothetical son, and I killed all of their sons to "avenge" it, I would be guilty of mass murder and sent to prison or executed. Why is it different for God? "Companion" to me suggests there may have been women as well, but it's irrelevant. If I went and killed every Hindu in my city for "worshipping idols and false Gods," that would be a reprehensibly immoral act. What gives God the right to kill thousands? How is it JUSTIFIED?! If I purposely have a child so that I can torture it for its entire existance, how is that NOT evil?! That's just the thing. I don't see the wanton murder of millions of children because of something they themselves didn't even do as justice. I don't see the murder of 3000 men for worshipping another god as justice.I see it as actions we would consider immoral today, and I want to know how anyone can justify them. Some of it was commanded by God.

quote:

---

Exodus 32:27-28
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

---

The fact that God sent His son to pay the price for us is irrelevant. According to the Bible He still committed heinous crimes. How is it justified? Oh, I see. Christians are supposed to help people escape murder by their evil God by threatening them into becoming Christians.That's not the God I worship. That's a monster.

Faith, let me start by saying I don't hate God. A big part of the reason I am not a biblical literallist is because I don't believe the loving, merciful God that I believe in would commit such horrible acts. I don't have any problem distinguishing between murder and justice. The killing of the firstborn, for instance. Many of those slain wouldn't be yet old enough to have committed any sin. None of them were guilty of the sins of Pharoah himself. They were murdered as a punishment to Pharoah - but even worse, because Pharoah was at first willing to release the Isrealite slaves until God Himself "hardened Pharoah's heart."I don't believe the loving, merciful God who tells us to love our neighbors would do such a thing. Combined with the fact that there is no evidence to support the Exodus from ever happening (not in the grand way told in the Bible, anyway), I am led to believe that no such even happened. The point of the story was to say that God will help you if you are in need. Whether the story actually happened is unnecessary to make that point. Why? What gives God the right to set down commandments and then break them Himself? If God told you to kill someone, you would do it?I wouldn't, because I don't think the true God would do any such thing. You don't threaten to KILL a child to teach him. And I beleive that God wants us to be good becasue it is the right thing to do - not out of fear of Hell or hope of Heaven. I try to live a moral life because I want to be a moral person, and I think that kind of life honors God. Letting God's messengers be themselves raped is hardly a good idea, I agree. But I would rather be killed defending my family and God's messengers than let my daughter be raped. Why couldn't Lot trust that God would take care of His own? Wasn't that the point of the messengers being there in the first place, to save the one supposedly righteous man in the city? Not all of them, of course. The children are simply the most heinous of the crime.And you're right - I don't think God would commit murder, either. But killing every last firstborn in Egypt right down to the cattle because Pharoah did exactly what God forced him to do (by hardening his heart) would be mass murder. That's why I don't think God did it at all. And what gives God such special status? The fact that He has power, and can get away with it? The fact that He gave us all life, and somehow now has the right to take it away? So every firstborn in Egypt deserved to die? Even the children? But God creates the child in this example with the express purpose of creating a sinner. He supposedly puts evil people on the Earth on purpose, so that He can punish them later. That's sadistic.I don't think He does any such thing. I think, instead, He gives us free will, and we choose to be good or evil.And I don't believe in Hell. Same Bible, different conclusions.I have faith in God. I know Him to be a loving, merciful, forgiving God. I am not accusing God of injustice - I am saying that the horrible actions described in the Bible would have been injustice if they had been done by God. My faith that God is good and merciful tells me that He could not possibly have done such unspeakable things. My rational mind with the help of science sees no evidence that He did, and so I am left believing that the Bible is not literally true.Look at all of the people who, to this day, believe that we should "kill all the fags" because it is God's Will. Look at the Christians who murdered abortion doctors because they believed it to be God's Will. Look at the 9/11 hijackers who believed that theyer were doing God's Will when they killed 6000 people.I don't believe ANY of those things were the Will of God. But those people claimed they were. Hitler even claimed that the extermination of the Jews was God's Will. I have no trouble believing that the authors of the Bible would attribute actions to God that He had not part in, just as is done today. I alos have no trouble believing that the authors of the Bible would embellish the truth and outright make stories up to make a point, teaching through allegory and symbolism. Parables, if you will...just like Jesus did. I fully distinguish the difference, Faith. And I agree that God would never commit anything but righteous acts. Which is why I don't believe the evil actions in the Bible were the actions of God. First, Faith, please stop accusing me of hating God. There are very few people on this Earth, I think, who truly hate Him. They might not BELIEVE in Him, of course, but that's certainly not hate. You wouldn't "hate" a giant floating spaghetti monster, either, becasue you don't believe there is any such thing.I don't think anyone deserves Hell, Faith. I don't think anyone deserves to be murdered for not beleiveing in God, whether He is the true God or not. I don't think offering your daughters up to be raped is a moral act in any circumstance. I certainly don't believe an entire CITY deserves to be destroyed because its citizens really liked anal sex. I simply don't believe the God I believe in would do those things, and so I don't take the Bible literally. I just don't understand how biblical literallists like yourself can believe that God can simultaneously be the wrathful blood-god depicted by some Biblical passages, and also the God who tells us to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Your message title says it all. I think they were fables, too, and not even necessarily directly inspired by God.I understand that those types of actions wouldn't have been viewed so horribly back then, and that many morality tales included such horrible consequences. But we don't take the Pied Piper as literal history, do we. Agreed. I simply don't believe it was God that directly caused the killing, whether by "cleansing fire from Heaven," or by ordering the Isrealites to hack the idolaters to bits.

This being the case, how do literallists rationalize God to be loving and good?Are other non-literallist like me, and simply believe that these sorts of actions were never commanded or done by God?

Even if I agree that God has the right to take life away, that doesn't mean it's morally justified.I have the right to be a total asshole, lie, and cheat on my girlfriend. All legal. All my rights. That doesn't make them moral actions. And that's what my OP was - How do Christians morally justify or otherwise account for the horrible actions in the Bible?

Quite the contrary. The more I read the Bible, the more I try to deepen my faith and pray for understanding, the more I see that God is given a bad rap in the Bible.I compare the way people acted in the biblical accounts to the way people act today, and I see great similarities along with the differences. I compare the biblical stories to various fairy tales and myths with a moral purpose. I compare the biblical accounts to observable scientific evidence. The conclusion I am left with is that the Bible is not literally true, and that God didn't do many of the things He is credited with.It's not that I pick and choose, Faith. I think the Bible was likely based on events that actually happened. I just think that through the intervening years, people exaggerated certain events (like the Flood), outright made things up to show a point (like Jesus' parables), and attributed natural disasters to "God's Wrath and Punishment" when He had done no such thing (Soddom and Gamorrah). Looking at the way people act today, I find these conclusions to be wholly reasonable, and fit with my belief in a good and loving God.I also saw that, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter if the Bible is literally true or not. What matters is the message it represents. Everybody does bad things. Try not to. Be good to each other. God is forgiving and merciful, and loves everyone.Does it matter if the world was created in six days vs a few million years? Not really -we're still here, and we can still have faith that, whatever the specific mechanism, God made it happen (not a logical conclusion, of course, but that's why we call it "faith"). Does it matter if the Isrealites really spent 40 years in the desert? Not really. The message was that God will take care of you, even if your situation is hopeless. Does it really matter if the story of the Fall is literally true? Not really. People still sin, regardless of the explanation for it, and teh sacrifice of Jesus (factual or not) represents the merciful nature of God.I found that, allegory or hard fact, the Bible can still work as a decent guide to living a good life and finding God.And again please note, Faith, that I don't hate God. I simply have a different conception and understanding of Him than you do.

I would say that God would hold Himself to a far higher moral standard even than He holds us to.If murder is wrong, then God would not do it. If Soddom and Gamorrah (assuming the destruction was intentional and not a natural disaster)was murder on a grand scale (and I don't see how it can be anything else), then I don't think God did it.I think it WOULD be wrong for God to kill people left and right for the reasons espoused in the Bible. That (and the lack of any evidence showing that any of these events ever happened) is why I don't believe God did any such thing.

If we're both held to "thou shalt not kill," then how is murder by God not murder?

Just an addition to the list of atrocities I mentioned in my opening post.

quote:

---

Psalms 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

---

So, apparently, God approved of taking babies and hitting them with rocks.Unless, of course, the authors of the Bible used their own perspectives and were not, in fact, divinely inspired.If the Bible is literally true, how can this be justified? How could smashing babies against rocks possibly have any moral justification?Just some context - here is the rest of Psalm 137.

quote:

---

137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. By the waters of Babylon

​

137:2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.

​

137:3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

​

137:4 How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?

​

137:5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

​

137:6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

​

137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

​

137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

​

137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

---

No, it doesn't say that they actually did smash babies against the rocks. They just said God would approve and it would be a good thing to do.

'scuse me.The quote was:

quote:

---

137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

​

137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

---

Not "Please God, kill their babies." They said "when we get our revenge, we'll be be appeased by smashing their babies on rocks. God, get us free so we can do horrible things like that to make us feel better." So you agree that the Bible seems to have some seperation point where God turns from a vengeful, muderous human-sacrifice blood-god into the loving, merciful, turn-the-other-cheek God?I think the second description is the true God of the Bible, and that the first is the result of people blaming everything that happens on His direct intervention.

As an aside, I find it incredibly odd that evangelists in general are anti-abortion, because abortion kills babies...While in the Bible God tells people to kill their children (after they are born) for the slightest provocation. Unruly and disrespectful? Stone him.

But Christ is God. How can the spirit of Christ call for forgiveness and turning the other cheek, and then "diviely inspire" someone to write about smaching babies on rocks?!

Did you even READ what you just said?! Those who bash the babies against rocks will be BLESSED?! Total annihilation. Which means the kids still need to die. And according to you that's a good thing? Killing children? Babies? Infants? How does God go from vengeful to "turn the other cheek?" ...except that one God glories in genocide and murder, and the other tells us to forgive and love our enemies.I agree that it's one God - I just don't think the violent description of God has anything to do with Him. And I would say that you are making the big mistake in taking the Bible literally as infallably true and not seeing that it was written by human beings who put their own spin on things.

"The trouble with an eye for an eye is everybody ends up blind."Who is innocent? Who is NOT guilty of at least one sin? Why is death the only punishment?How is it moral to kill a disobedient child?