Christmas Star Explained

And Luke said plainly that they made it known abroad. Well, Luke said plainly that they made it known abroad.You're just repeating your incredulity.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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Thousands of years earlier in a different universe. So?? How does that relate to the times of Christ??? Hey, despite your hocus pocus, I am right in focus. The tower of Babel was in a different state universe, and thousands of years before this! You would need to connect the dots to have a point. Points are good. Work on that. [qs]Who cares really, more important is that people could have walked into Heaven from any large hill.[/quote] Now, do I remember something about a plain?? Indeed. So, where is your hill?? You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Now, if you can prove that the spiritual level, in that area, extended beyond the plain, go for it."Gen 11:2..as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; "Gotcha. Now, about your claim that the location of heaven changed..can you back it up?? See, I never really got into that aspect much, so 99% of your ideas seem to be gross misconceptions here. There was, for example, a paradise below the earth, in my opinion. How else could Jesus go to paradise after He died??? He never rose to the heavens till afterwards.Have you any indication that either the underground paradise was not also there in the time of Babel?? Or, that the level did not change, and get lower, where man could not reach it?? Let's see what you got!
Not that it is on topic anyhow. Maybe we should keep it simple for you here. Just prove within reason, either science or the bible, that the spiritual level was still where it was in Babel's day??? You seem to want to restrict things to the concept it was, so evidence your claim..Otherwise, forget about it, Jesus lived in our universe, and there was no spiritual level up above nearby then any more than now. Get it?? Whatever they may think, if they have the comprehension to read what I say, they would not suppose that the tower of Babel spiritual level was here in Jesus' day.So, have you any point left, that was not just demolished, on how the starship would have some problem with a spiritual level that disappeared millennia before do let us know. The Christmas star?? What, you think there really was a Christmas star of any kind??? Show us what it was, and we may see how superior your ideas are here, and how good a grip you have.

Where "it" was what happened to them that night, not some reaching all men with the ultimate implications of the long foretold Messiah mission. Obviously.From the rest of the bible, and we all know how much you dislike that being brought to bear on a subject, the great commision was much later. And even then, it was not to even really reach the cities of Israel before the end came! Give the poor peon shepherds a break, on what you think they did, or were supposed to do. They saw a great light, and heard some voices. Relax.

Let's look at what Luke said (again):

quote:

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Luk 2:16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.
Luk 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.

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It was precisely "the saying which was told them concerning this child" which they made known abroad. And, in case you've forgotten, what was "the saying which was told them concerning this child"?

quote:

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Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.

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What you're denying is what Luke explicitly said - that the shepherds made known abroad that the Savior, the Christ, had been born.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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Different universe? What are you talking about? Babel was not in this universe now? Ohh a different state universe! I see, wonderful - when did the state change from Babel Era State to Jesus Era State? Where in the bible does it talk about this changeover? No need. What indication do you have that Heaven was 2-3000 feet above any location on Earth? Its your claims remember, I am just asking the questions. I have several times already. Here it is again :

Heaven was a physical place that the people of Babel could build a tower to. (or it was not a physical place and God ruined the Babel project for nothing)

Heaven became non physical sometime between Babel era and Today. (or nothing need have changed as the Babel folk where confused)

You imply that there must have been "another abode" that Jesus ascended to before he began his construction of The New Jerusalem.

The physically reachable Heaven was below the location of your Starship.

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Have you any indication that either the underground paradise was not also there in the time of Babel?

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You just introduced it now from what I see. No I don't have evidence that what you have made up is true or not true. Do you have any? Why am I now obligated to provide evidence for your assertions?

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Just prove within reason, either science or the bible, that the spiritual level was still where it was in Babel's day??? You seem to want to restrict things to the concept it was, so evidence your claim..

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I make no such claims. Its not my story! I wish only to point out the claims you have made about the location of Heaven during this time and its consequence on your location of the starship in the time of Jesus. Unless you can provide a quote from the bible that indicates the removal of Heaven from its 2-3000 foot elevation above the Earth before the time of Jesus.

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Otherwise, forget about it, Jesus lived in our universe, and there was no spiritual level up above nearby then any more than now. Get it??

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Nope, I don't get it. When did it move and where in the bible does it say this to allow you to make such claims?

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Whatever they may think, if they have the comprehension to read what I say, they would not suppose that the tower of Babel spiritual level was here in Jesus' day.

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When did it move and where in the bible does it say this to allow you to make such claims?

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The Christmas star?? What, you think there really was a Christmas star of any kind??? Show us what it was, and we may see how superior your ideas are here, and how good a grip you have.

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Sorry, I am not the one making claims. Call it what you will I am only interested in YOUR stories. My stories about that time are not important for this discussion. You can call it a "Christmas Star" or the "Starship Enterprise" - all I am interested is in showing that your claims are illogical and inconsistant with your claims about the tower of Babel.

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For the last time - I don't have to provide evidence, its not my story. I have provided the quotes where you have made illogical claims and now you are obligated to further explain them, run away, or retract. Take your pick, I don't really care.

Well, if you mean as far as science knows, we have no idea whatsoever. The state of this universe is simply assumed to have always been.
If you mean bible, why, there were major differences such as lifespan, and light, etc, that indicate that this was not the norm. Right at the time of Babel. The differences really are pronounced after that. No more spiritual level, or angels marrying girls, or trees that could grow in a week, or lifespans that were near a thousand years, etc. I figure it is about 4400 years ago. Why? I can see that, you certainly aren't answering them. The indication that there was a spiritual level within tower range is that they indeed tried to build a tower to it. Simple. It was a real place, but it need not only be physical, as obviously it was for spirits, hence, a spiritual level.Heaven is still spiritual, as are angels. They are now separate, and when coming here need to make the effort.The another abode bit is true, before New Jerusalem, obviously no one lived there. Like before New York city, no one lived there. They did live somewhere, just not there. Maybe even a lot of someplace elses, who knows?The starship never got to the manger scene till long long after the spiritual was separate, and the Babel reality was no more. I see. So your only source for things spiritual is me. OK. Well, you might notice that I already gave a little bible support for that, mentioning that Jesus went there right after He died. Remember the thief on the cross that He told, 'thos shalt be with me this day, in Paradise'? The Christmas starship was no where near the time of Babel, when there was a nearby spiritual level, so it has nothing to do with the Christmas star. The spiritual, I believe, was separated from the physical around the time of Babel. We were left in this physical only state we call natural, which is actually a temporary universe state.The bible CLEARLY speaks of this whole heavens, or universe we know passing away, and new ones coming. The new ones are REMARKABLY like the pre Babel of the bible world. Really. That is what I am trying to get you to attempt, by contrasting the bible with what you think is what really went down, and why you believe it. Any time now. For the last time, if you call something illogical, you need to show why!!! You can't. You got nothin. As anyone that can read can plainly see! Thanks for that.

OK, so they started to preach the gospel. So??? That preaching, in their limited way, did not yet reach the halls of power, a year and 10 months, and 11 days later, or whatever time it was, because the bible documents that the palace folk were still truly ignorant. Deal with it. I don't make this stuff up. I thought they concentrated on their testimony, but as you point out, the bible does say that they told the good tidings as well. I agree. But their attempts at telling it, though they gave it their best little shot, never hit the thickness of the palace of Herod, and penetrated. That is fact.

There's nothing in either nativity account to support that.The shepherds gave it their best shot. There's no hint that they failed.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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I have said "why" many times now, surely I need not repeat myself again and again only because your attension span is marked in seconds.I will however ask the same question again that you replied to (and quoted) - Where in the bible does it talk about this changeover? Your kidding right? And the conclusion I should draw from this is that God, in his infinite wisdom, actually believed they could do it. Stupid. Enough with your hazy sorta this, sorta that definitions that allow you to slide from one side of the fence to the other. Was this location of Heaven physical or not - could they have built a tower to it and if so when did this change? So now would be a good time to finally, after my many requests, provide the passages from the bible that mark the time when this changeover happened. You are mistaken. You are my only source for the story of the Starship Sceptre cleverly disguised as a star and floating above the previous location of Heaven, that moved sometime in the distant past due to unknown causes and is now named The New Jerusalem, marked the location of a barn for wise men that somehow were the only ones who thought a UFO may be important.My source for spiritual answers will remain far from this thread. Fine, provide me with the passages that state this. Impossible given that you slide around what you say Heaven was during the time of Babel. Until you finally say if it was physical or not and whether God was fooled into thinking the tower had a chance of success, I am unable to conclude much of anything at this point.What I "think went down" is not the issue. You have presented two stories that I have asked direct questions about. After multiple posts it is still not even clear to me what position you are taking about Heavens location, attributes, or the timeframe of its dissapearance. I have asked the same questions in the same manner from the begining. You have brought up Angels getting married, the location of hell, the resting place of Christ before his ascention, other such nonsence that has nothing to do with the questions as I have presented them. You have asked me to answer my own questions, create my own stories and provide evidence for them, and to even provide evidence for your assertions; during this time I have asked the same questions in the same manner.I frankly don't care what anyone thinks but I do have confidence in the fact that anyone can read exactly what I find illogical about your story. Its not hard to find, you have made me repeat it an absurd amount of times now. Feel free to finally clarify the timeline of events in such a way that it does not become illogical. I will even admit that I think you are finally creeping up on a story that may just work, I am just curious to know if it can be supported in the bible.Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.Edited by Vacate, : Spelling... again

Their best was to tell their friends, and such. They really were not expected to cover the globe and all men with their tales. No matter how desperately you try to stretch it.The glad tidings were to reach all the world, as the angel said. They did their little little bit. In context, it was a job well done. To pretend that they should have gotten the news fast directly to God's enemies is absurd. To pretend they were to reach all men of all time is absurd. They saw the great light of the starship, and heard voices of it's heavenly riders, more than likely.They. like the wise men, were guided to Jesus by it! In their case it was to the manger, rather than to the house in Nazareth. The king was out of the loop, till the news conference. That is plain.

It speaks of the changes six ways from Sunday. The dividing of the spiritual from physical, as I read it, was in the days of Peleg, when the earth was 'divided'! (of course this was also including the continents, and languages, etc. that happened at the same time)The change FROM this state is mentioned in more than one place, but look at the last 2 chapters of the bible, and read all about the new heavens. No, I really see no substance to your posts yet. You can't so much as tell us where you stand, and what you think is the actual case here. Just read your own posts, if you doubt that. Of course. He was the One that set it up. He allowed angels to come down, and marry women. He cursed man, and the ground we walk on. (notice that did not include up above?) It was not physical. it was close by. They could have built up to the spiritual level, yes. You seem to equate real with physical. There is, and was more reality than just that. The spiritual was part of that reality. In the beginning, before the curse, in fact, I think that the spiritual and physical were merged, resulting in the etrnal state of matter. Now, we just have the physical, which is in a state of decay, etc. Gen 10:25 - And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. The cause for the separation of the physical from the spiritual, likely was the wickedness of man. He needed to limit our lifespan! Imagine if all the Hitlers lived 1000 years!! The universe is the way it is because of man! It is in a temporary state. The bible says this heavens and earth will pass away. It will. We are not in the eternal state now. Let me give you the low down here. There is a gag order on me talking about that on this forum. They even stopped me from being able to make new threads. Science has no comeback for this, as it rests only on the baseless assumption the universe always was and will be the same.So, the only defense is to try to silence those that speak of such things for some, who are 'in the box' of restricting themselves to the limitations of only this universe state.Since it is off topic, I try not to get into it too much, knowing they would like to shut down the thread where I do speak, why give them the excuse?? All I'll do is give a link that covers the basics of the different state past.To qualify for the last remaining posts of this thread, you need to be on topic. I just explained why.
http://www.geocities.com/heddidit/As for the Christmas Star, I have no idea what you think is illogical, or logical. You seem not even to believe in it at all, but, since you won't talk, who knows?? If you thought it was real, what you think it was we have no idea. If not, why not, we have no idea. Apparently you do seem incredulous about the star being the shekiniah glory starship. Perhaps you are also the same way about the bible and God in general. Too bad. Neither science, nor the bible could help you in such a case, that leaves you with opinion. So????Edited by simple, : No reason given.

So the Heaven that people could stroll into was relocated in the days of Peleg. Excellent.So how do you explain your previous post: What is this place? This is obviously not the Heaven from the time of Babel, so is this another Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death? Is it still there? When did it become non-physical? This place you spoke of was in reply to Bernerbits who was quite clear about the physical nature of this location: This is the "abode" that I am curious about. This one that Jesus ascended to after "taking great lengths to prove he was still human". This place was obviously not removed/altered/transported during the time of Peleg. Sorry for the drawn out confusion, the time of Peleg Heaven nicely clears up the question of why God didn't want a tower built though.I now am forced to ask you... How high up was the other Heaven that Jesus ascended to? Is this still around? Is it still physical?*ABE* Hint - at this point I suppose you could state that this Heaven V2 is 14,000 + feet up and I will no longer claim your story is illogical. Just a hint, lets see how it goes. *ABE* I was not asking if you where kidding about the substance of my post. I was asking if you where kidding because you asked me to answer my own bloody questions!Have another look, reprinted for your viewing pleasure: If I write a book and you think its illogical, would it then make sense for me to require you to clarify how you would write the story? What does my opinion matter when its your story thats under discussion? What I think is the case is you are hoping that I will say the Bible is a story, you can then call me an athiest, and then pat yourself on the back for exposing another demon. I am not saying the bible is a story, I am saying you are inventing a story and using the bible as a reference. He set it up and then knocked it down. Works for me, but it casts a negative light on your high flyin, scepter god. So it was not physical, but it could be built up to and entered? I still have issues with your descriptions. It has not stopped you from posting about these topics until I ask you to be specific. How should I interpret this? I said it many times, it was above the location of Heaven. Work on your memory, make flash cards, sticky notes, something that will progress this discussion so I don't have to keep repeating this. I don't believe your story, as I said above. Its not nessesary to divulge this because I think its quite obvious. As for my opinion on the Bible - its not relevant to the discussion, nor is the size of my shoe. Perhaps you should not speculate about my motives, beliefs, or opinions and you would not have to worry about gag orders. Stick with the topic - your story!Edited by Vacate, : Heaven 1.98 ?

Just as I thought, speculation.

Do you mean speculation on my part or that of simple? I had at first thought you meant me, but if you do mean simple - well then we are in agreement Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.

They didn't have to "cover the globe".You're claiming that spreading the news "abroad" didn't include it spreading second-hand or third-hand a mere few miles to the next city. You're claiming that that didn't happen in two years.To pretend that Herod wouldn't hear about a usurper in his own back yard is absurd.Enough of your incredulity. Present something substantial.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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