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Member (Idle past 3627 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What if Satan reformed? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Archer Opterix writes: Anyone who regards Satan as a real being has to admit Satan's personal change as a real possibility. I would suggest that anybody who regards Satan as a real being already "knows" all they need to know. They don't have much interest in what-ifs. They probably think questions like "What if Satan reformed?" are Satan-inspired. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Lets just see if we can even agree on the characteristics of a Satan, should one exist. Even if "a satan" doesn't exist, wouldn't the characteristics still exixt? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Jesus, in describing Satan.... Jesus was clearly speaking figuratively. "You belong to your father, the devil" is figurative. "He is a liar and the father of lies" is figurative. Bit of a mixed metaphor there, actually. The devil is the father of (Jesus' audience) and also the father of lies. Kinda implies that the members of the audience are lies. Just goes to show that Jesus was only human. By the way, back up a few verses and see who the audience was:
quote: He was saying that believers are the spawn of Satan. So cut Him a little slack if He said there is "no" truth in Satan.
By definition, the spirit that is the devil is a spirit devoid of any truth. Don't know where you get that "definition".By my definition, the "devil" is the spirit of untruth in all of us. Just as we cannot be fully like Jesus, since we are capable of rebellion, (and Jesus overcame that weakness).... I think you miss the point of Jesus being fully human. We can be fully like Him. If He had some super-power that we don't have, He would not have been a man, and His significance would diminish.
... we also have just enough of the Spirit in us to not be the other spirit. It's not a question of one "spirit" or the other. We have both "spirits" within us - that's what the knowledge of good and evil means.
Freethinkers who imagine themselves free from any religion or authority save their own.... Interesting phrase, that. Kindly point out any fundie who doesn't imagine him/herself "free from any religion save their own". As for authority, how about making that "responsibility" instead? As in, "Freethinkers don't pass the buck to any authority". (Satanic or other.) Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
nemesis_juggernaut writes: People that refer to themselves as "Freethinkers" tend to be of the pagan persuasion, i.e., the rebellious towards God.... Now I'm wondering why you equate "pagan" with "rebellious towards God". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: ... we see that Good (Light) and Evil (Darkness) are not normally coexistant in humans. It is either one or the other at any given moment. They have to be coexistent for one or the other to dominate at any given moment.
Do you think that Judas was always good and evil? Of course. Do you think he was kicking puppies on the way to pick up his silver? He could have done a hundred good things on the same day that he did one bad thing.
If Judas always had a combination of good and evil in him, he would have remained a ell balanced yet fallible human. Isn't that the point of the story? Wasn't Judas just like any of us?
However....when Judas betrayed Jesus, Jesus foreknew it. I don't see how Jesus' foreknowledge impacts in any way on the fact that Judas had a good side and a bad side. In fact, it sounds almost like Jesus chose Judas, doesn't it?
... it is quite clear that Satan was not already in Judas. Not clear at all, unless you think of Satan as some kind of puff-of-smoke phantom. It seems clearer to me that Jesus/God was allowing Satan - i.e. Judas' built in "dark side" - to "come to the surface".
This Spirit is not in everyone....only with everyone. I don't think the preposition makes any difference at all. In this context, "in" and "with" are identical.
Its quite clear that if the Holy Spirit was in everyone, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition. You could just as easily say that "if God was in control of the world, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition". Once again, it's the knowledge of good and evil - we all have it in us. We all have the capacity to do good or evil. Judas didn't need to be "possessed" to do evil. Nobody does. If we do evil, we have only ourselves to blame, not "Satan". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: If we do evil, we have only ourselves to blame, not "Satan". So does that mean if we do good we have only ourselves to thank? Where does that leave God? Do you think God sits on His cloud all day long like a teenage girl, waiting for us to call?Do you think He cries Himself to sleep if we don't? Big Gods don't cry... big Gods don't cry.... Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: God does not want us to be independant of Him.... I think He does. That's where the whole free-will/knowledge-of-good-and-evil thing comes in. If He wanted us on a leash, He could have done that. But, like any parent, He does want us to leave the nest.
God wants us to be interdependant. God dependent on us? **checks to make sure this isn't the "unthinking blasphemy" thread** ------------- So, what was the topic? What if Satan reformed? Satan could only "reform" if he was, in fact, separate from God. But the Bible depicts him (mostly) as a servant of God, somebody who is not independent. The Bible depicts him (mostly) as God's effort to test our independence. Edited by Ringo, : Typo. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes: It is a choice to willfully bend our knee and realize that Daddy will always be in control. You don't have any kids, do you? Fathers don't want to "always be in control". They want their kids to grow up and be in control of (i.e. take responsibility for) their own lives.
Daddy doesnt want his kids to grow up to be Satans, after all. Daddy doesn't want his kids to live in His basement forever either. Going out into the real world has its temptations and its risks, but a mature parent wants his kids to mature too.
The whole idea of satan reforming is whether or not Satan will finally acknowledge the foregone conclusion that it is Gods universe whether one believes it or not. Do you realize how silly that sounds? If Satan was as sharp as you imagine, do you think he wouldn't understand the "foregone conclusion" as well as you do? Why wouldn't he be trying to cut his losses instead of pulling a Hitler-in-the-bunker? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
danny writes: I think talking about God in human terms is misleading. Humans can only talk to humans in human terms. How is that "misleading"?
If God is everything then 'It' is less of a being and more of a 'state of being'. Satan reflects the separation from this state of being. That doesn't make sense. If everything is the "state of being", how can anything be separate from it?
For Satan to 'reform' He would have to transcend this separation and in doing so would "return to God", as it were. He would have to annihilate His own Self in order to return to the state of being that is God.... Exactly. But the "separation" can't be real.Therefore, since there is no Satanic "self", the "annihilation of self" is already a fait accompli. (Welcome to Evc. ) Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: After the Fall, when peoples eyes were metaphorically opened, we ourselves became a seperate spirit, alternate reality, (freethinking) that was no longer in communion with the Creator Spirit. As I've been discussing with Buzsaw in another thread far, far away, man's relationship with God was much closer after they obtained the knowledge of good and evil. Before, He had spoken to Adam only once and to Eve never. He had walked with them never. After, the Bible is chock-full of stories of God talking to people and walking with people. As God said Himself, eating the fruit made them more like Him. They needed to eat the fruit to have closer communion with God. Communion between equals is always better than up or down a chain of command.
Some would suggest that by default, any spirit that is in the alternate reality is Satanic by default. So, logically, since there is no "alternate reality", there is no Satan.
The very idea of independance from God is not growing up, in my opinion. It is like excommunicating oneself from the family. The Adam and Eve story disagrees with you. They became more independent, took responsibility for their own lives and improved their communications with God. It's the exact opposite of "excommunicating oneself". Jesus said that we love God by loving "the family" - i.e. our fellow man. Better communication with "the family" - empathy for their needs - is better communication with God. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: since there is no "alternate reality", there is no Satan. Depends on your perspective. We know we are not in Gods reality yet. What reality is left? There is only one perspective, only one reality - our perspective, our reality. No rocket science, no Satan.
God has given us an invite to regain communion with Him. As I showed, we have NOT lost communion with God - Genesis is very clear about that - so there is nothing to "regain". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat,
You're not responding at all to anything I post. You're just preaching.
Satan is the embodiment of arrogance within the human condition that declares that we all are already like Jesus. The whole point of Jesus is that He was like us. Edited by Ringo, : Re-grammarification. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hi, viewfromthetop.
I can hardly wait till paragraphs are invented. How about you?
And if you can't see it, perhaps you should pray for the pride to be removed in your life It seems to me that the ones who claim special insight - the ones who claim to "see" what others don't - are the ones who are prideful. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
viewfromthetop writes: As for the premises. I believe they are sound. I didn't read much of your premises, for reasons that I hinted at. Could you present your case a little more carefully - bearing in mind that the topic is "What if Satan reformed?" And set your bullhorn to "stun". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
viewfromthetop writes: Satan was programmed by God to work evil. See, that's where it starts to stop making sense. When the program is completed, we don't throw the computer into a lake of fire. Why would God do that?
The resistence is due to the fact that God and Satan are diametrically opposed. Again, that makes no sense. Why would God create a program that was "diametrically opposed" to himself? (In my experience, programs are quite capable on their own of doing the opposite of what I want. )
So the Holy Spirit has to intervene on the will of the elect to make sure they are dragged to God. Sounds like you're saying that God is having a tug-of-war with his own program. When that happens to me, I have Ctrl+Alt+Delete to fall back on. But you make it sound like God has no further control over His own creation. ------------- I'm aware of the dogma, but I was hoping you'd put some thought into it. The question here is "What if Satan reformed?", not "Why can't Satan reform?" Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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