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Author Topic:   Anti-theistic strawmen?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 145 (424983)
09-29-2007 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
09-28-2007 11:41 AM


Zeal - religious or non-religious fervor
Dawkins' basic point is here as well - without faith, without the system in which everybody reinforces the idea that faith is good despite the lack of evidence (or even despite contradictory evidence), the death cults could not function as they do now. That is what he means by the Catholics candle ceremony being the top of a slippery slope, of being the support to a backward belief system, of leading to dangerous ideas and actions.
This is faulty logic though on the part of Dawkins. Would the eradication of faith (something he uses daily, btw) really tip the scales of justice, so to speak? You don't see that as a hopelessly naive notion, especially in light of innumerable instances where the eradication of religion ended in total catastrophe?
I think the argument only really points to human beings and what avenue they choose to justify atrocities. Anyone can find some reason within their heart to come to dangerous ideals. Religious zealots have done it, and so have godless zealots.
Therefore, I don't see how Dawkins' conclusions apply to reality.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2007 11:41 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 09-29-2007 8:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2007 5:22 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 145 (424991)
09-29-2007 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
09-29-2007 8:36 PM


Re: Zeal - religious or non-religious fervor
quote:
I think the argument only really points to human beings and what avenue they choose to justify atrocities.
Huh. Isn't this what you were trying to argue against in the racism thread?
Yes, in some respects. I don't think anyone can sit there and say that either religion or irreligion is the cause of atrocity. Since both camps have their fair share, we need to look to other reasons. Well, what's the common denominator? What threads runs through all of it that ties all of them together? The fact that they're human. There is something within mankind that, at the basest level, is prone to these sort of things. I would call this sin. You, no doubt, would object to the terminology, but there seems to be some basis for it.
BTW, thanks for reminding of the racism thread. I forgot about it.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 09-29-2007 8:36 PM Chiroptera has not replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 145 (425012)
09-30-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by BMG
09-29-2007 11:18 PM


Re: Zeal - religious or non-religious fervor
quote:
I don't think anyone can sit there and say that either religion or irreligion is the cause of atrocity. Since both camps have their fair share, we need to look to other reasons.
Would you mind providing supporting evidence for this assertion?
Collectively, the Crusades and the Inquisition, though it is difficult to tally accurately, must have been in the hundreds of thousands, all in the name of (insert god here ______)
Collectively, atheist despots have over 100 million slain. Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse-Tung, just to name the most prolific. And this all within less than a 100 year period.
I'd say that's a pretty significant tally, wouldn't you?
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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 Message 17 by Chiroptera, posted 09-30-2007 12:25 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2007 12:35 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 145 (425168)
09-30-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
09-30-2007 12:25 AM


Re: Zeal - religious or non-religious fervor
I thought between my title and what I stated in the thread was obvious. What I'm attempting to elucidate is that atrocities come from all different angles, whether religious or irreligous. Therefore, the arguments that religions are bad or atheism is bad virtue of association fails to explain the greater phenomenon.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 145 (426386)
10-06-2007 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
09-30-2007 12:35 AM


Re: Zeal - religious or non-religious fervor
What does atheism have to do with any of those guys?
Everything. "There can no longer be any good a priori, since there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it. It is nowhere written that 'the good' exists, that one must be honest or must not lie, since we are now upon the plane where there are only men. Dostoevsky once wrote 'if God did not exist, everything would be permitted'; and that, for existentialism, is the starting point. Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist." -Jean-Paul Sarte
Hitler was Lutheran and had the support of the Catholic Church in his mission against Jews
Hitler was raised Lutheran and used the RCC as a way to further his eugenics cause. Being that Germans at that time were predominantly Christian, he used it as a tool of manipulation.
Stalin had a degree from a seminary and certainly enacted plenty of religious doctrine of his own.
Yes, Stalin was preparing for the seminary, lost his faith, severely, and enacted no religious doctrines, but anti-religious doctrines.
Not believing things on the basis of no good evidence, which is what atheism is, has never killed anybody. The millions that you mention fell victim to the same kind of faith-based thinking that typifies religious thinking, even if specific supernaturalism wasn't always prominent in their religion. Certainly these despots were held in religious esteem by the followers.
Which is something I've been saying since I arrived at EvC, but denied up and down by the likes of yourself. Religion doesn't begin or end with the supernatural. Religion exists in the minds of the deeply, so-called, irrelegious.
"... secularist will say that people like Stalin didn't murder others because of a godless worldview, but because they were fanatics. Of course they are trying to head off any implications that secularism and atheism heavy contributed to genocide and atrocities. Here they tackle a straw man when the ball carrier is running around the end.
The point is not that every humanist or atheist will engage in a career of axe murdering as a result their unbelief; but that with God out of the equation, they no longer have a foundation from which to legitimately criticize that which they say is wrong...
The non-believer... cannot be intellectually honest without admitting that the atrocities committed by Stalin's purges, Hitler's concentration camps, Mao's red death, Pol-Pot's killing fields, and others, are consistent with assumptions of naturalism and atheism. For example, when Stalin talks of breaking a few eggs to get an omelet, he is applying a standard of "survival of the fittest" to justify his ruthless purges. We might note that animals out in the forest or jungle appeal to the sharpest teeth and fastest legs in deciding who survives. What did Hitler do but give a militaristic interpretation to the philosophy of Nietzsche?"
-Robert Meyer
But Hitler? How does he even make it in your list?
Yes, he should not have made that list in any classic sense, since he was a mystic of sorts. But his beliefs were garnered by Nietzschean philosophy while the Nazi's danced to the music of Wagner (pronounced - Vogner).

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2007 12:35 AM crashfrog has replied

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