What is: The Gospel According To You?

if objective reality is based on a belief, you should have no problem boiling the kettle and pouring the boiling water over your head.By suspending your belief in the subjective notion that hot water causes great pain and destroys human tissue, you should come out of this unscalded.It should be a doddle.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

we have this concept we've discussed in art classes a few times: what is red?we can't say for certain that everyone views red the same way -- in fact, we know some people don't. they're color blind. now, there's a great scientific definition of red. red is all wavelengths of light between 630 and 760 nm. that's great and all, but it doesn't REALLY mean anything to anyone, and very little to us as painters. even the apparent objective definition is really subjective: the line between red and orange is arbitrary.but, here's the odd thing. i get out my paint tube of red, and i paint a picture using it. i see it as "red." the next person comes along -- and THEY see it as "red" too. although if i could see through their eyes, maybe it wouldn't look red to me. but it's red to them. because it's all they've ever known as red. and my experience, though different, is all i've ever known of red.now, we could do some studies, and find out where people draw the line between red and orange. and we'd find it in many different places -- but there's always that one "pure" color that everyone will agree is red. even though it might look totally different to everyone in the study, we'd never know.objectivity exists as the overlap of subjective realities. objectivity exists BECAUSE we all agree on certain things.(forgive the late night ramblings)This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 04-13-2006 05:48 AM

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This reminds me of Jesus and Pilate: And so go the arguments. It seems to me that if an artist knows what red is, a human knows what truth is.Keep in mind that Jesus taught: What did Jesus mean? So by their inherent energy you will know them. Just because a man (or woman) has the right scriptures in hand does not make them legitimate. As a Christian, I need to constantly ask myself (and ask the guide within me) if I am representing His love, His wisdom, and His instruction to the very best of my ability and if I am setting a good example in the process.In the final analysis, it is not what I say that will be absorbed so much as it is who I am (or whom I represent) working through me that will count in these types of discussions.If we all were representing Christ, there would be no need for division among us, now would there?The very fact that you, arachnophilia, asked us to foregive you for "late night ramblings" shows me a humility that commands respect! Oh....one other thing before I go....one more scrip: Some say "I follow jar"; another, "I follow Phat"; another, "I follow Iano"; still another, "I follow Christ". (Seeing as how all of us are using the same book and talking about the same God, how is it that we even debate these types of things? )This message has been edited by Phat, 04-13-2006 04:34 AM

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

that's the beauty of the book, Phat. It is what you want it to be!what does that tell you about it ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

and some people don't have a word for orange so everything is either red or yellow. and the distinction there is worse.

I always maintain that it is not so much the book as it is the character behind the book.In a Gideons Bible, the following statement appears in the introduction:
The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter.
It's where paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given to you in life, will be open at judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifle with its holy contents.On the other hand, I have heard persuasive arguments from scholars which indicate that the Bible is not without inconsistencies and ideas expressed through the limited intellects of the times in which it was written.I agree with you that the book is what one wants it to be. Yesterday, I was reading the footnotes in the Amplified Bible, which is known as a thought for thought transliteration that unlocks subtle shades of meaning. The Chapter and verse were Joshua 11 where it has been cited that God was being a cruel God. In the footnotes, it said:
Infidels say that it seems wholly inconsistent with what we should suppose to be the merciful character of God that He should thus command whole nations to be destroyed by the sword...(But) when we see juries in our own country bringing in a verdict of guilty, the judge pronouncing the sentence of death, and that sentence executed, we do not complain that there is anything unjust in the act.

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These Canaanites are proved to have polluted and stained the land with intolerable crimes; it was merely the holy Judge (the Lord) pronouncing the sentence on flagrant criminals and (Joshua) the righteous governor executing that sentence to the letter. It was not an act of arbitrary or private revenge, but the execution of the sentence of retributive justice, and as such had perhaps as great mercy to the innocent as justice to the guilty" (John Cumming, cited by James C. Gray and George M. Adams, Bible Commentary) My jury is still out on the O.T. God, but I think that people were still trying to differentiate which voice they heard in their collective conscience at the onset of those times. In other words, Im not a word for word literalist concerning the ideas in the O.T. When they spoke of God, it may have been their concept of God rather than God, literally.Its much the same as if George W.Bush told the nation that the United States was doing actions of mercy by ridding the world of terrorism even as we took a lot of innocent lives along in the process.If Jesus were running the country, what would He do?

methinks you're talking about fuzzy logic here, Arach. There are varying degrees of 'redness', just as there are varying degrees of pain. This is the fuzzy part. The absolute part is that red exists to us, just as pains exists to us. We all agree, we all experience it daily. It's part of our reality.However, according to iano:

quote:

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[Objective reality] Its all only belief

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Suspension of this belief, therefore, should change reality.I just suggested a simple experiment to that effect.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

An example of Jeremiah 8:11 Is it right to tell people, while pretending to have God's authority that they are fine when they aren't. Maybe if your looking for approval from other people but not from God. Jesus came to save people, how could he save people who were not in trouble, and if everyone was going to be saved why did John come first saying "O generation of vipers who hath warned ye to flee from the wrath to come." Now I am glad that God is good and "his mercy edureth forever." But it's wrong to tell people that are in danger that everything is alright. Jesus spoke about hell for a reason(Rev20:15)(psalm 9:17)Matt10:28 It's the way the devil always works, he wants to lift you up so he can throw you down, he wants people to be so confident in their own righteousness that they turn their back on God. That is why he said to Eve "You will be like God knowing good and evil" and tempting Jesus with all the kingdoms of the earth if he would fall down and worship him. Sin is rebellion against God, when God made the universe he looked at everything he had made and it was "very good", but look at it now, God said he would destroy those who destroy the earth (Rev 11:18). That is why it is the "good news" that God loved the world. And that even though we are sinners Christ died for us. Because we don't deserve eternal life, but whoever receives it can take it.This message has been edited by Rainman2, 04-13-2006 06:28 PM

Let's see if I understand what you are asking since you seem to like to quotemine and take things out of context.You quoted jar as saying "everybody is and has been saved". Was there anything else posted in that message?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't see how it's out of context, unless your saying "everyone is saved, unless they don't follow the rules. That's not what salvation is, it's "not of works lest any man should boast" and "by the law shall no flesh be justified". You said one thing that was true in your message,"Love God and love your neighbor as yourself". The Bible tells to do that is to do the whole law. For instance people gossip (a sin), if they loved their neighbor they would not cut them down behind there back. God gave the Jews certain standards for their diet, if they love God they will take his advice, even if they just really feel like a bacon cheeseburger. In the same way every law is contained in "Love God and your neighbor as yourself" Matt22:38 And think about what it would mean if someone really loved their neighbor as themself, that would mean to help every suffering person you saw by doing the same thing that you would do for yourself in the same situation. The example the Bible uses is the good Samaritan, when he saw a guy who had been beaten by robbers he not only took care of his wounds but he paid for the place he stayed while he got better, and said if he needed anything else they could put it on his account until he came by again. But as the Bible makes clear the law cannot justify a person because there is not one person that kept the law.Who he was writing to whether Jews or gentiles doesn't matter, because he says in verse 9 This chapter isn't about what laws they had to keep, but about the fact that nobody kept them.
And besides your Gospel says, everyone is saved, except for the people who aren't saved, you get saved by keeping the law, I am not righteous (don't keep the law).

quote:

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Rom.3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

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Again, all you're doing is quotemining, taking lines out of context. Read all of Romans. What it says is that you will be judged based on what you do. It says that many will do what's right even without hearing the name Jesus or knowing GOD. It says that doing what's right will be how you are judged by GOD.What I said is:GOD sent Jesus to remind us that he loves everyone and that there is no Original Sin or Fall. All are forgiven. GOD also asks everyone to try to "Love GOD and love others as you love yourself". Well, that's not what GOD expects or what Jesus said.The best description of the steps required is in Matthew 25. There, Jesus outlines what steps are needed to love GOD.And they are not big things. It's a lifetime of little things. And it's doing those things, not for salvation, that's given, but because they are the right thing to do.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

A classic Jar-2-sentence-non-reply to the time and energy someone has put into a post to you. Serves to back up the notion that energy absorption is the your route to..er... victory.More specifically, you would have to come back with something better than you did in response to your woeful quotemining of Romans 2 not very many posts ago on this thread in order for the above charge to Rainman to be taken with something other than a pinch of salt.IMHOJar, you've got balls. No doubt at all about it.AbE: removed "out-of-context" reference from an appraisal of Jars use of Romans 2. It was worse than thatps: rainman: you've got mailThis message has been edited by iano, 14-Apr-2006 03:28 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 14-Apr-2006 03:36 AM

Also, you didn't answer my question. Was there something else in the message where you quotemined a few words out of the middle of a sentence?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh dear...Rainman: you've got mail. Read it.

Upon examining this topic and, indeed this forum in general, I feel that in order to be useful in such matters, such as this particular topic, I need to reread the Bible from cover to cover, as I have not done so in 30 years. [I will use the KJV, since it is the one most considered infallable by the majority of fundamentalists]. Therefore, I will refrain from posts concerning specific details within the Bible provided they do not conflict with overwhelming evidence to the contrary or are blatantly misrepresented and/or misinterpreted. In addition, I feel I must reread and review my examination of the other religions and/or interpretations, knowledge of which I have taken for granted for too long. Please bear with me as this will take some time.However, I reserve the right to post during this time if someone, in my opinion, makes an assertion that is either very good or very bad, according to my current knowledge of both science and religion.