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| Author | Topic: Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days)  Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
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CTD Member (Idle past 5897 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days)  Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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CTD Member (Idle past 5897 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
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Phat Member  Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
a free pizza is not a miracle. Now, if the pizza was free and it fed 5000 neighbors, we may have something!
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days)  Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
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ICANT Member  Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days)  Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Nator:
LOL! I was alluding to YOUR advice, genius, not Jesus'. Or, do you think you actually ARE Jesus these days? I think my faults speak for themselves. I try to reflect Christ, but am no Christ... I believe He lives in me, but He is only as visible as I allow Him to be, by way of laying down my own foolish pride. There is a difference! Nator, I understand the difficulties. I know the struggles. We may not agree, but can we begin, with curtiousy, to attempt to communicate for a change? I have tried and tried to seperate myself from my emotions throughout the last months. To deny myself and be patient. I am only a man... Please do take the time to read the following explainations. To wave them off and wish it away is just laziness. We must think clearly on these matters. Please  You can weigh my words on whatever scale you wish, but consider for yourself... 'what is the only possible legitimate scale'? Perhaps the Bible is not the Word of God. But unless God has revealed Himself, then we have no basis for labling anything as 'true or false' in the ultimate metaphysical sense, other than by our own prejudice (the very thing we seek to escape). Our only tool for understanding is that which is understandable. A coherent and logical examination of ideas. Some of which may only register 'intuitively' until the connections are made within strict intellectual terms. It's hard work Nator. That is the purpose and nature of Theology; to seperate the wheat from the chaff...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Preaching hidden as off topic. Those who wish to read, please hit peek. If any other admin disagrees with this, the text is still here - AA <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< If you want the truth with all of your heart, all of your mind, and all of your strength then go get it, it's free to all men (and women of course). But if you don't seek it above all else, then what is it you really want? What must we worship above all else, if not the truth? It simply has to be our sole intent. We must be committed to nothing less. That is why we are commanded to worship only God. Not for his ego, but for the answers to our own questions (if we really want them). Hear me out... Test me with fire, and see if I am not a reasonable man (at least this morning... I have bad days too you know?). Certainly the Bible cannot be claimed by mere men to be the Word of God. I could just as easily say that the 'Unibomber's Manifesto' (or whatever it is called) is the inspired word of God. Someone would have to come from God in order to say what is really true with any authority. An alien visitation if you will, from the absolute side of reality in eternity, to the relative side of reality in time. Men are not trustworthy with such responsibilities. They carry thier own name even if they are unconscious of the fact. They have no power to overcome themselves. They are prisoners to this side of reality. Only God Himself has the authority to affirm 'so-called' Scripture. I think that is an important point. And we instinctively look for contradictions so as to test truth claims. There's another clue! The question is, has He done so? Or is that also an invention of man? Certainly the test of logical consistency is not man's invention. We apply it to others and conveniently forget to use it to test our own worldview. If you find any of my words and ideas contradicting those of Christ (whom you imply is trustworthy), I insist that you rebuke me. Because Jesus made it clear that He did not judge by human standards, but by the Word of God. And in this way, He confirmed that the scriptures are the final authority. That is His teaching. So do you believe Him as you implied? It's a tough sell huh? It's rightly fightening!
John 8:13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." 14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. Jesus never broke the scriptures Nator. He came to fulfill, not to abolish...
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. So if you want to label Him a fundamentalist and show your own prejudice, and nail Him to the cross spiritually and intellectually, keep in mind that in the final scene of the drama, you are being the very fundamentalist you wish to escape from. The truth is exclusive. Jesus is either telling the truth, or is just another man who is deluded to a degree unprecedented in human History. And unless delusion is truely and manifestly bad, then there is no discernable difference between delusion and sanity. This applies even more so to 'Fundies' like me... If Jesus was persecuted for claiming to be God's son in the begotten sense of the historical context (which is the same thing as being God), then how much more despised am I for following this lunatic?
Matthew 10:16-42 16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. 24 "A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household! 26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 'Crazy' is historically attributed to demonic influence, and I quite agree. These ideational little wizards create all kinds of false dichotomies that are very difficult to expose and exorcise. But one simple tool that is at the heart of God's own intellect (and inseperable from His nature of Love) is the law of non-contradiction. And with this simple tool, we cn expose the little snakes, and take them up and drink their poison unharmed. His thoughts are one of exquisitely logical analysis. A thing of manifest beauty, far beyond mere machanical thinking. He is not only reasonable, but also undeceivable. And that is just one of the things that make Him so beautiful. But to dismiss my words as my words is unfair if they are indeed coherent, because I do not own clear thinking. I posess it in the sense that I have accepted it. But I am really only allowing it to posess me! It also causes a problem for some of you... On one hand, you ask me to think for myself. And then when I put a long string of coherent sentances together to develop sound concepts and ideas, you dismiss it as Rob's truth (Ringo even adds a 'TM'). I neither am logic (truth), nor did I invent it. But without it, I am not making reasonable arguments. Thinking clearly (I assure you) leads to only one place in this world of irrational devils... the cross. But the irony is, that because I see, I am not afraid of you. I come in the name of Jesus... not as Jesus. If you are looking for Jesus, you'll have to look for a David Koresh, or another Heaven's Gate type of individual. It is believeable to you if people come in their own name? These rationalists think for themselves (as so many say they respect); as though they have the capacity to transcend this earth and it's many physical and spiritual chains, either confirming or denying the existence of God and expounding upon His true nature. I am afraid it is not possible. Jesus talked about it all. It is written you know?
John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. So when I claim that what Jesus Himself said is true (that we can be born again) because He opened my eyes and I now see, you reject me as a liar and manipulator? I did not open my own eyes... I allowed Him to do so. It's the easiest thing in the world, and also the hardest. It is free, yet cost me everything in terms of the respect of my peers. What is it you want? Nator:And how arrogant of you to assume that I haven't heard about Jesus before. I was raised a Christian, Rob. I was a believer. I had many years of religious instruction. None of this is new to me. Those are the very things Jesus caim to preach against Nator. It's not about blind allegiance, religious practices, and cultural tradition. You rightly rejected such emptiness... It is about understanding (seeing) what it is He actually said. The words mean nothing if you don't take the time to comprehend them and consume them in such a manner. It think you must have caught the Spirit of it, because I see no other explantion for your compliment of my supposed genius. It's not genius Nator... it is the Holy Spirit of God trying to reach you by way of an imbecil like me. So now, you take it... and follow it and examine it for yourself. You don't need me, you need the real living and breathing Christ of which it is my greatest honor to share with you.So, why are YOU afraid to doubt any part of your belief, Rob? Nator, I want you to listen to me... there is no part of my belief (that I am aware of), that I have failed to examine with such maniacal scrutiny as to send the 'merely religious' among us, running for cover in fear of their lives. Not much arrogance left here... it dies daily, though admittedly kicking and screaming like the devil it is. Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by AdminAsgara, : proselytizing efforts hidden as off topic
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CTD Member (Idle past 5897 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
purpledawn writes: I agree and, for me, the spiritual growth is knowing God through His manifestation in myself and others.
I don't feel the journey has an "end". It is continual spiritual growth. nator writes: Nator, our differences in our approach to growth and destiny are the classic issues between freethinkers and believers. Freethinkers cherish the ability to critically think and examine. The ability to question answers is itself a sacred gift from God. Jar and I discuss this. Jar maintains that God is unknowable. I believe that God is knowable. I agree with purpledawn in that it is a lifelong process, however.
Neither the AA or the Christian Step 3 would work for me. My life and my will are just that. My life. My will.nator writes: And I would agree insofar as it is I who consciously chooses to commit my life...
One of the most useful things I learned during my recovery is that I am the only one who controls me.Rob writes: And no formula works for everyone. As a believer, I used to avow that Jesus was/is the only answer and personally, I still believe that this is so. I no longer preach it, however. God is showing me that each individual whom I interact with has a unique and special makeup to them. I don't push anything on anyone anymore unless I feel that it is what I should do. (and you may ask how I can trust my feelings.) I just do. I don't justify myself to anyone else but me.(and God)
We're all raised in relatively abusive homes. And that is because sin is really sin, and it hurts and damages us deeply.nator writes: As this pertains to me and my recovery and counseling choices, I will say that I have never given up on myself. I simply allowed myself to be accountable and able to accept direction from sources besides myself.
I just have no clue why someone who is struggling with life would think it is a good idea to just give up on themselves. Rob writes: But thats what irritates me about your approach. You attempt to decide for us how we all should approach the puzzle. You should do what you believe. As far as we goes, thats up to each of us individually. I realize that I am touting relativism, but relativism is the way that people operate. Many people do not desire for morality, truth, or authority to be legislated or even suggested. And I have come to respect that. After all, God never makes me do anything...why should I make you do anything?
So when I said I live for another world (I actually thought you might jump on that) I didn't say it well. What I was driving at was that, since this world is in disarray, we should look to adapt to it. Rob,to Nator writes: In the context of this forum, I strongly believe that my only responsibility is the freedom to express my view.
We have a responsibility to each other, and the fact you respond to me proves that you do care what others think. Rob writes: If we are collectively meant to work as a team, the insight will be verified in our actions and will be validated by the results. We are not meant to attempt to lead the team (or group of individuals) to a collective goal. That is Gods job. Remember that He who began a good work...shall be faithful to complete it. I never worry about being a Shepherd anymore. Just keep in mind Phat, that this is not a small group. And also remember that Jesus embodied all of the qualities of understanding. He had both your greatest insight and patience, as well as the fire and certitude of my boldest sermon. He had the balance that none of us can achieve. That is the whole reason we need the rest of the body. We are meant to work as a team.CTD writes: You never had him to begin with! ah, what's the use! I've surely lost you by now.  nator writes: I agree in that We become the decisions that we make. I never do anything simply because I am told to do so, when it involves matters of spirituality and belief. The unction must become real to me before I act on it. I "create" myself every day. Years ago, I re-created myself quite radically when I decided that I didn't want to behave like my old self behaved. Of course, the "project" that is me is never finished, and I will continue to change and grow (I hope!) until my last moment.Ringo writes: And the only reason to accept anything blindly is because one of your other "senses" cleared the runway for takeoff! Faith without doubt is blind acceptance.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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CTD Member (Idle past 5897 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
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