Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?

Thats a great letter to your brother-in law! I am sure that it helps him. The point that I am trying to make, however, is sensitivity when speaking to others of different faith persuasions.In the case of Schraf, for example, you are getting her no closer to God by the way that you attempt to rescue and correct her thinking.I will say that I like the poem. And I understand that it is important to share your faith.If it were me, I would respect other people beliefs more, however. It is OK to step out of rescuer mode once in awhile. (IMHO, anyway )

Yes well as is often the case with me, I speak too soon.The main concept I wished to convey is that we agree that our environment is dysfunctional. Some personal environments more so than others.But in saying that, we are creating in our minds an image of what 'healthy' and functional is.As a Christian, I do not condemn others. But I am concerned that many 'counsellors' do away with the notion of 'unhealthy' altogether.There is a difference between condemnation and condoning that which leads to malady. And once again, it all depends upon the definition and image we worship as the true standard.So when I said I live for another world (I actually thought you might jump on that) I didn't say it well. What I was driving at was that, since this world is in disarray, we should look to adapt to it.So, if we are healthy people (relatively speaking of course), then we would expect to be accepted by the sick. And the sickest of us are the one's who think they are healthy (right Phat?).It is the healthy people who show patience and compassion (an admission of 'unhealthiness' for me to be sure!) yet, still remind the 'unhealthy' that they are in fact unhealthy. Some tend to focus on the compassion and leave out the truth. Others like myself focus too much on truth, and lack compassion.Who do we look to as an example of filling both roles?Nator, you said it is my life, and my will.But that is not true... You didn't create yourself, and you are not an island. We have a responsibility to each other, and the fact you respond to me proves that you do care what others think.We all do. If we didn't we would be sicker than we are.Saddam Hussein didn't care what people think...I'll go out on a limb here and assert that no-one here at EVC is that autonomous. And that is good... none of us has become totally dead to life.

Phat:Thanks! I am reluctant to be vulnerable still. My wife would laugh at that! r-e-l-u-c-t-a-n-t? she might ask Just keep in mind Phat, that this is not a small group. And also remember that Jesus enbodied all of the qualitites of understanding. He had both your greatest insight and patience, as well as the fire and certitude of my boldest sermon.He had the balance that none of us can achieve. That is the whole reason we need the rest of the body. We are meant to work as a team.And as the 'prophetic type' (not to be confused with being a prophet... we're all that in some capacity) I am very poor at team playing.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

So make up your mind. Pick an accusation and stick with it. Am I trivializing the important issues, or trivializing doubt? You don't appear to be coping so well. I was hoping it wasn't the case when I wrote Hint: you can scroll up the page and see what you already wrote. There's a scroll bar on the right-hand side of most browsers, and if you have a wheel on your mouse it may also do the trick.Now if I can overcome my doubts about the value of continuing... Wrong-o, Ringo! In Christianity God's love is certain, and I've already explained that. And what's this "blind acceptance" nonsense? Nobody blindly accepts nothin'! That's the stupidest myth anyone ever tried to perpetuate. In fact, I'd have a hard time believing people commonly accept anything they have less than 50% confidence in. It's practically impossible to do so. One who tries it on important matters might not be around very long.Ironically, the much-vaunted term "science", if subbed in for "Christianity" almost salvages your paragraph.Then you ask why I pair doubt and worry? Doubt is the prerequisite for worry, in case you never noticed. You also may or may not have noticed that I don't think worrying is very good. Since silly doubt can lead to silly worry... ah, what's the use! I've surely lost you by now.

quote:

---

The main concept I wished to convey is that we agree that our environment is dysfunctional. Some personal environments more so than others.

​

But in saying that, we are creating in our minds an image of what 'healthy' and functional is.

---

No, "healthy and functional" is as "healthy and functional" does.

quote:

---

Nator, you said it is my life, and my will.

​

But that is not true... You didn't create yourself,

---

That's not entirely true. I "create" myself every day. Years ago, I re-created myself quite radically when I decided that I didn't want to behave like my old self behaved. Of course, the "project" that is me is never finished, and I will continue to change and grow (I hope!) until my last moment.

quote:

---

and you are not an island. We have a responsibility to each other, and the fact you respond to me proves that you do care what others think.

---

Of course I care what others think.However, I am careful in who's advice I take.

Faith without doubt is blind acceptance. And questions are the prerequisite for answers. Do you stop questioning just because you're afraid of the answers you might get?

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Phat, forgive me, but I have now become lost as to how 'Why are Christians Afraid to Doubt' ties in with addictions? By taking a stand I think you are saying that you believe in the theoretical or demonstrable usefulness of these tools. I believe that Christians should take a stand about things that they have 'proved' to themselves. If something works for you, stick with it. Preaching relies on like-mindedness. Conversion requires an extreme compassion towards the listener. One need not deny the good of their own position by saying 'this doesn't work for everyone', but the way we 'preach' our ideas to others by giving them the conclusion rather than the logic, often requires way too much of a leap of faith on the part of the other.This is one thing that I am not overly fond of when it comes to the wording of the 12 steps.It is good to remember that many of those who participate in therapy groups are not of the same level of comprehension and self-ability as our good EvC members. Some addicitions have taken so much control of a person's life that it is hard to know when they had their last clear or rational thought, or had put anything into perspective. The fact that they land up in a group is not necessarily indicative of anything positive.STEP 1) WE ADMITTED THAT WE WERE POWERLESS OVER OUR ADDICTIONS AND COMPULSIVE BEHAVIORS, THAT OUR LIVES HAD BECOME UNMANAGEABLE.STEP 2) WE CAME TO BELIEVE THAT A POWER GREATER THAN OURSELVES COULD RESTORE US TO SANITY.STEP 3) WE MADE A DECISION TO TURN OUR LIVES AND OUR WILLS OVER TO THE CARE OF GOD.These steps will not work for everyone. What is beneath them may be solid psychological tools that would work. We all need to admit we have a problem. We need to acknowledge that there is a way to solve it, and then we need to be willing to put our lives into the hands of those we feel know what's good for us. In extreme cases, reliquishing of one's will is necessary. We put people into forcible detox programs.But guess what? Forcible control does not work unless a person 'owns' themselves. How many times have I seen these programs fail? How many times have I seen a person released and in days or months go back to the same behaviour? I would say that in my experience almost 100% of 'recovered' addicts have relapsed.This is where I think relinquishing one's will does not work UNLESS a person is also an 'adult'. It sounds like a contradiction. The Chrsitain 12 steps are a born-again experience for many. A fad that dies out. If you are already Christian, you should have had these same tools instilled in you. If they didn't work the first time, why will they the second time? Believing in something is meaningless without results.This is essentially the same as the morality conversation. If you don't 'own' your beliefs, they are pointless. Faith without works, maybe.Have faith...take a stand. But don't just stand! Look around. Is this faith really doing anything for you? Is it really making your life more livable or more meaningful? We can't just sit back on our idealistic haunches and feel justified for finding the 'solution'. What good is a solution if it hasn't solved anything? You know how I let my snake go lost again and again, the whole time knowing the solution to the problem? You know I whined over and again in chat groups about my 'problem'. My firm belief in the resolution of the issue is absolutely useless until I get up and 'put a lid on it'. There, you can see, that confidence is good. If God is your solution, by all means have confidence like a child. Then, seriously, get up and be an adult. If you put the lid on and it doesn't hold, look for another solution. That is the only way to move forward; by action. You can't own your ideals until you live them.

A fireman must go into the burning building to save someone. He is in 'rescuer mode' but he is relating to the rescued. Rob, I feel, is afraid you will become the 'victim' altogether.

And a good thing, too! Event though I don't counsel, I certainly would point out the existance of 'unhealthy thoughts' to all of my patients. We don't need examples. We need to do what we need to do achieve what we want: as Nator did so well.

Seems to me he/she is good at putting you at ease. This is a good tool to have for engendering trust.But it does high light that feeling at ease is different to trust.Now I'm going home to get pasted Edited by Larni, :

Sorry it took me so long to get around to this. This topic's sailing right along and it isn't easy to keep up.Short answer to Question 1 : It's proper to acknowledge our Creator as our rightful owner.Longer answer: God knows more and is perfect. We know less and are imperfect. It's not hard to predict His decisions will be superior. God also cares for us very much & we have the parent-child analogy right handy.Between a cooperative, trusting child and a stubborn, disobedient child, which has better prospects of amounting to anything? Now consider just where we are in this analogy. Are we even a two-year-olds?Question 2. Sharing thoughts is good, if the people are reliable. Trustworthy information and good suggestions are surely to be desired. Can't say I'd commit too quickly to 'sharing wills'. If that were easy to do, I expect governments would be better than any I've encountered. And don't you become partly responsible for the whole group in that case? Not something to do lightly, and not with anyone who you do not trust. Never permanently except in marriage, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. The old issue if self-reliance. We all struggle with this. "God helps those who help themselves", etc. I'm not sure I have the best answer, but I'll try.The first key is for a Christian to realize that even when we "feel" self-reliant, we are not. Every breath we take, and even each second of time itself is provided by God.Decisions are what this is about. Not cut & dried sin or obey decisions. It's the tough calls when we seem to have no guidance. The first step is naturally to pray for guidance. And we must be alert. It may come from scripture, from a trustworthy friend, or any number of places. Perhaps the answer will be reveled while watching children play, or fools arguing.Still no luck? Might be time to evaluate the situation a little more. Does your heart say one thing, but reason another. An older, wiser friend once told me to follow the heart in such situations. The heart is smarter, and reason will catch up later. This has proven to be true in my experience.(He's one of the most intellectual persons I've ever known - go figure!)It's also probably about time to set a deadline. There is another possibility a lot of Christians overlook: God may be testing our decision-making skills, or for some other reason He may want us to decide on our own. Would it be like Him to fail to have a contingency plan? So set a deadline, and when the time comes make a call. Indecision = paralysis.I think such cases mess with Satan's head. It's a lot harder for him to predict what we'll do and be prepared. Just another of my 'pet' ideas.I hope my opinion is sound and helpful.P.S. I forgot to mention: avoid a binary mindset. There aren't always two options; sometimes 3 or more!

Sure there's a difference. Philosophy has defined the two as distinct. But this is artifice in the sense that the core part of us which actually makes decisions isn't a philosopher. It only knows a confidence/doubt ratio about a given piece of information. We're conditioned to believe "subjective" information is inherently "less reliable". If we succumb to this conditioning, it skews the ratio.If the drug is chemo, I'll pass. Your question needs work. I don't know these people, and I don't know to whom they pray. I don't know the drug or the illness. I don't know of any drug company that gives a hoot about anything other than overcharging... and hey! If I'm gonna go the faith-healing route, what do I need a drug for? See that: just another excuse to overcharge! Are you agreeing that the "disinterested observer" is not available, as I said?And for the record, 'religious beliefs' are seldom, if ever based solely one one's private thoughts. A flawed example. The "subjective truth" wasn't truth at all. Nice try at conditioning, though. You'll find I'm not such an easy target. History has trumped your "objective truth" as well. People have survived falls from greater heights than cliffs. A couple have even done so without functioning parachutes.Actually what you give is an example of someone being mistaken about an "objective" thing. There is nothing "subjective" in the example whatsoever. Are you suggesting "objectivity, logic, and rational thought" have no place in a discussion of doubts? Or maybe "emotions" is the problem. Please don't say the "dog" threw you; people like dogs. I trust you'll have no problem explaining this great difference, in that case. Actually I don't have much faith in your ability to do so. Hey! Maybe they are different! Okay, I'm kidding.

Rob I have never been of the impression that existence is for my simple amusement. The death of my best friend in grade 1 ended those innocent notions early. And as Mr Shaw once said "I am not a teacher; only a fellow traveler of whom you asked the way. I pointed ahead-ahead of myself as well as of you." A reductionist is not one who defines everything by its immediate pleasure. That I may be capable of selfishness at times I freely admit. By that same token, however, I also have been known to be kind and loving, sometimes impatient, stupid once in a long while , in short, merely human. Except for the first part of number 3 I have ran the gamut my friend yet, in retrospect I cannot seriously consider it a burden given that life is precious while we have it but having it does not make one special just fortunate. This is especially true when you consider that
you were one of about a thousand sperm that made it {from an initial number of 50 million} to the fallopian tube for a chance to join with the egg. So you won the ultimate lottery of which there is no chance to once again enter. A thousand brothers and sisters who may have been failed to make the grade so how can we ,ultimately, consider this to be a burden hmmm? You meet me online for moments a week and from this you feel you can judge my life and its worth or lack thereof? Of course life is not all games, however, our attitude controls our enjoyment and our sense of duty as well. I have fathered 3 children and been father to five more and I have known of disappointment and sacrifice. I have also known love and bonding and sheer delight at the marvelous world we find ourselves a part of. I have buried friends and witnessed births. I have seen the moon rise full 20 miles into the wilderness over the Bow river in the dead of winter with Orion soaring to the west. I have watched my mother talk to me with the light of recognition long since gone and more than once wished I had been there to wish her farewell.Life is a huge thrill ride, a dance, a play ,a theater to which we are both actor and audience yet this is somehow a meaningless adventure? Do you have an alternative hidden somewhere in your closet son?

---

"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre," he muttered to himself, "and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes."
Ford Prefect

Yes. I suppose winding up on a cross does not appear sensible to you...

Life is a test sidelined, not a thrill ride. A test that asks only one question...Can you give up your own desires for the truth?And when you make statements on one hand that make life out to be shear luck, and by implication an accident as seen here:Yep, always qualifying those absolutes with a but will not convince any serious thinker that you are capable of anything other than (as jar likes to put it) Jabberwocky, or palming the pea (not that he knows what he means. He just likes to say things that seem smart to those looking for friends in a world of wolves (that's a hint Phat. Sorry for the necessary implication)).And if palming the pea in mid paragraph is not enough, you qualified (mysteriously evaporated) the whole idea that life is 'ultimately meanignless' with this:So which is it sidelined?Is life a meaningless thrill ride, or a wonderful and meaningful journey?I contend (and do so gladly and openly)...that if the underpinning and overlying reality is, as you have specified (meaningless), then explain to me what is wrong with anything?, and how it is also meaningful?What is it going to matter in the final analysis?Why should I bow to this standard you are believing in, as a real and sufficient philosophy of life as we see it?It appears to me, at once, that there are glaring contradictions within your system. At the very least (good sir) they are paradoxes that are not sufficiently redeemed by your analysis.They are, however, left drifting in the wind, so as to allow yourself the liberty to not think at all when doing so comes into conflict with your own beliefs.As I said to Ringo... That is blind faith!It is not only not knowing what reality is, but not really caring to look for it, or even acknowledge it's ability to be known.Such a philosophy is not new mind you. It is known as 'Nihilism'. It is the philosophy despair that led to the Existentialist philosophers in the early and mid 20th Century.it was also key in Adolf Hitlers vision that peace was only possible by force. And paired with the philosophy of Naturalism, which lent credence to the notion that survival is the only legitimate moral; Hitler very logically embarked upon his dreams of the Super-Man (a term also coined by Nietzche).I could sustain these claims with many quotes and supporting evidence as the EVC forum guidelines suggest, but you really don't give a damn do you?For the record, I am just as lonely as anyone else in this world. I seek friendship and love too. But the political and peer pressure to not take it all so seriously...as though it is all meaningless (imagine you guys thinking that!) is something I will not conform to. I'll stand alone and mocked, before I give in to a deluded sense of life and false friendship.If all this is here at EVC, is a game to earn political capitol with as many people as possible, and engender trust(as Phat said to Larni) by way of nice talk and false love, then you guys are missing the point...I don't say these things to be condemning or condescending. I firmly believe in what I am telling you. And I remind you that love and peace is not acquired at the expense of truth and justice.I am just about bleeding in my mind and soul for you folks, but there's nobody home. It reminds me of what is said in those stupid scriptures about the signs and wonders and almost incomprehensible deception that will come in the last days. And although none of you believe in such foolishness (not even the elect) I will share it with you at the expense of my usefulness in this travesty and ship of fools... The most deceptive false Christs by the way, are not those who claim to be Christ (most of us are smart enough to see that one), but the one's who deny Christ altogether: Christ being 'reality' and 'truth', in the Greek sense of the synonymous thinking.Now one last plea I give you (I know some of you are laughing your hind quarters off, that's too bad )...In the face of such shear and defiant resistance (and not just here at EVC), I have on many occasions asked myself..."Is it possible that I am the one deluded? Perhaps it would just be easier to put down this cross and join the choir. I mean really... the whole world is against me it seems (boo hoo, tear tear) other than a few million 'fundamentalist freaks like me' against a tide of billions...maybe I am wrong...?"And then I remember that I am not the one telling people what they want to hear......and the Devil within retreats in fury, and I find the peace again. This whole world is a giant Garden of Gethsemane. I am sorry for failing all of you. But I never once preached myself and my will and my life... I preach that Jesus won the battle for us all.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quotesEdited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.