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Author Topic:   Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 106 of 300 (392299)
03-30-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
03-30-2007 8:39 AM


Re: Look Before You Leap
Neither the AA or the Christian Step 3 would work for me.
My life and my will are just that. My life. My will.
I will share a personal story here.
I was raised in an emotionally abusive home. I had learned a lot of survival mechanisms that helped me to defend myself against my parents' destructive and damaging teaching. When I went out into the world on my own, those same survival mechanisms did not work anymore and actually caused me to come into difficulties in personal interactions with others. I didn't understand that this was what was happening at the time it was going on, of course.
In my early twenties, shortly after I got married, I fell into a fairly significant depression. I'd say it lasted a couple of years, during which I did an awful lot of work on myself. I stood in the self-help section of the bookstore with my heart pounding in panic becasue at that moment I admitted to myself that I was an adult survivor of childhood abuse. I was terrified of what that meant for me and my future.
That fight or flight response abated enough for me to buy a couple of books and that was when I began my journey to a much healthier place. I relied on my husband a lot for support, and on my sister and brother, too. But knowledge and understanding were powerful tools that I was able to use to change the way I thought.
I literally changed my behavior and the way I thought about myself nearly entirely through the force of my own will, and with support from a few who were close to me. I am now a very, very different person that the one I used to be, and it is because I changed.
Now we come to my point in telling this story.
I was the one who needed to do very specific things; I did the exercises and incorporated the behavioral modification techniques that I read about in the books. Nobody else could do that for me; ultimately, I made the change happen. Who else could?
I have absolutely no idea how "turning one's life over" to anyone or anything could have possibly helped me. One of the most useful things I learned during my recovery is that I am the only one who controls me. Nobody can "make" me feel or do or believe anything. If I want to change something about me, it's up to me to do it. I can get support and encouragement and understanding from others, but it is up to me to make it happen and make it stick.
Giving up one's will seems to take away personal power at the moment we need it the most.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 8:39 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Larni, posted 03-30-2007 9:35 AM nator has not replied
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 03-30-2007 9:39 AM nator has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 107 of 300 (392301)
03-30-2007 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nighttrain
03-30-2007 1:37 AM


Re: I'm on topic
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Nighttrain, posted 03-30-2007 1:37 AM Nighttrain has not replied

Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 108 of 300 (392303)
03-30-2007 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
03-30-2007 8:39 AM


Why and What if?
Phat writes:
I suppose that a fair assessment of this step would be to ask ourselves some questions:
Why is it necessary to turn our wills and our lives over to anything?
Putting my CBT hat on for a minute.
Turning our wills over to (insert name here) can lower anxiety levels to a point where we can engage in constructive apraisal of what is going on in our heads when we decide to (gamble, drink, worry, ruminate etc).
This is no different to accepting that (say) a therapist has the tools to teach you to improve your quality of life.
In practice I sometimes have to 'sell' CBT to a patient. Essentially this is the placebo effect as the patient starts to 'believe' in the theraputic approach. The fact that (person you put trust in) is interested in you will tap into the Hawthorn Effect (my very favourite effect).
Phat writes:
What if we choose not to believe in a Higher Power? Would the logical step then become to share our thoughts and our wills with a group of people in the hopes that we could gain insight into our addiction or our thought process?
I think it does not need a higher power/group effect/theraputic intervention/advise from a friend etc to do the above. It needs something to give you the confidence that you can do it.
This can come in many guises, but I guess I prefer mine because of the wealth of research to indicate it works.
And the fact that I can teach it to people in a few hours. Gawd bless the NHS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 8:39 AM Phat has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 109 of 300 (392304)
03-30-2007 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by sidelined
03-30-2007 8:00 AM


Have ...You.... never....just ... taken ... the...time... to... sit ...back... and... enjoy... the ...view?
For many years yes...
How about you sidelined? Have you ever just taken the time to sit up... and consider that this existence is not here only for your simple amusement?
Your a reductionist. You define everything by it's immediate pleasure to you. My 10 month old daughter does that. But it fits her profile... She is an infant!
There is a time for other things sidelined...
Ecclesiastes 3:1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, 3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, 5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, 6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, 7 a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, 8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. 9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men.
Little boys (if we don't grow up) take that to mean you have free license to only include one side of each equation.
When do you take time to think seriously about it all. Your stuck in a time to play.
There's more to life than fun and games and protesting for them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by sidelined, posted 03-30-2007 8:00 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by sidelined, posted 03-30-2007 7:50 PM Rob has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 110 of 300 (392305)
03-30-2007 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by nator
03-30-2007 8:08 AM


Re: I'm on topic
nator writes:
But I don't think we're talking about doubt in things that can be verified by a "disinterested observer", such as if you are breathing or not. In other words, objective things.
I think we are talking about fearing to doubt one's subjective answers, such as religious beliefs.
An artificial distinction. The only thing preventing a "disinterested observer" from verifying most of these things is the lack of such an entity. Even so, truth is truth. Those who diligently seek it will find it; and those who don't will not.
People dissociate objectivity, logic, and rational thought from emotions (thanks largely to Spock and Data, IMO). But they have a logic of their own. Is the loyalty of a dog not something that can be rationally, logically, objectively observed? Or did people just decide to arbitrarily make it up?
Likewise trust isn't without basis. Just think of anyone you trust or distrust and ask yourself whether or not you have a reason. How is 'religion' anything other than trusting God (or for some, priests and other delegates)?
Edited by CTD, : spelling correction

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 8:08 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 9:48 AM CTD has replied
 Message 115 by Larni, posted 03-30-2007 10:02 AM CTD has not replied

Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 111 of 300 (392306)
03-30-2007 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
03-30-2007 9:21 AM


Re: Look Before You Leap
Well said Nator.
You did for yourself what I teach in my sessions.
If everyone could do what you have done I would be out of a job and a lot more people would lead a lot better lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 9:21 AM nator has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 112 of 300 (392307)
03-30-2007 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
03-30-2007 9:21 AM


Re: Look Before You Leap
I did the exercises and incorporated the behavioral modification techniques that I read about in the books. Nobody else could do that for me; ultimately, I made the change happen. Who else could?
You answered your own question...
You sought out the ideas and concepts to help you adapt to the world.
The same goes for Christianity. But it is adapting to a different world than this one.
What disturbs me, is that you are so proud of yourself. And you look down your nose at those who are weak (as you still are).
You project strength in ordeto protect yourself from being hurt again.
And you are worshipped by many for that image you project.
Still alot of healing to be done in that heart of yours Nator. I only believe that, because you just wrote my biography too! As well as many others...
We're all raised in relatively abusive homes. And that is because sin is really sin, and it hurts and damages us deeply.
Forgiveness is more powerful that control. Jesus proved that when he died on the cross.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 9:21 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 9:50 AM Rob has replied
 Message 117 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 10:06 AM Rob has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 113 of 300 (392309)
03-30-2007 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by CTD
03-30-2007 9:30 AM


Re: I'm on topic
But I don't think we're talking about doubt in things that can be verified by a "disinterested observer", such as if you are breathing or not. In other words, objective things.
I think we are talking about fearing to doubt one's subjective answers, such as religious beliefs.
quote:
An artificial distinction.
Wow.
So, to you there isn't any difference between "objective" and "subjective"?
Tell me then, how would you feel if your doctor said that she wanted to give you a new drug because the people at the drug manufacturing company really prayed hard about it and they have a lot of faith that it's not going to poison you and will cure your ailment?
quote:
The only thing preventing a "disinterested observer" from verifying most of these things is the lack of such an entity.
Huh?
My point was that theoretically, any number of observers who don't have any interest in seeing any particular outcome of a test will return the same result.
Pick a hundred random people to observe if you are breathing or not, and the vast majority of them will find the same result. That is what is meant by "objective".
On the other hand, we cannot do this for your thoughts. Nobody but you knows what they are. Nobody can detect them but you, and you are the opposite of an "disinterested observer". That is "subjective"
quote:
Even so, truth is truth. Those who diligently seek it will find it; and those who don't will not.
But "subjective" truth is only true for an individual. "Objective" truth is true for everybody, no matter one's personal beliefs.
A person might personally believe that they can jump off a tall cliff and survive, but the objective truth of physics that applies to everybody trumps his personal "truth".
quote:
People dissociate objectivity, logic, and rational thought from emotions (thanks largely to Spock and Data, IMO). But they have a logic of their own. Is the loyalty of a dog not something that can be rationally, logically, objectively observed? Or did people just decide to arbitrarily make it up?
I really don't understand how this is relevant to the topic.
quote:
Likewise trust isn't without basis. Just think of anyone you trust or distrust and ask yourself whether or not you have a reason. How is 'religion' anything other than trusting God (or for some, priests and other delegates)?
"Trust" and "faith" are very different things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 9:30 AM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 10:04 AM nator has replied
 Message 132 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 5:40 PM nator has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 114 of 300 (392310)
03-30-2007 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
03-30-2007 9:39 AM


The Rescuer Mode
I have a question for you, Rob. Why is it that you are always comfortable in the rescue mode? Can't you participate in the topic by discussing some of your hangups and addictions as well? It is ok to become vulnerable and honest.
I get mad at you when you preach, because it turns many people off and they no longer wish to participate in the topic or discuss the issues that we are addressing.
Add By Edit:
One of the primary guidelines in the small groups I participate in is that We are here to support one another. We will not attempt to "fix" one another.
Edited by Phat, : add by edit

Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”
--General Omar Bradley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 03-30-2007 9:39 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Rob, posted 03-30-2007 10:10 AM Phat has replied

Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 115 of 300 (392312)
03-30-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by CTD
03-30-2007 9:30 AM


Trust
CTD writes:
Likewise trust isn't without basis. Just think of anyone you trust or distrust and ask yourself whether or not you have a reason.
Well, yes, I certainly do.
Thats the foundation of building trust. You trust that someone will act in a way they perport to.
Following multiple examples of congruous behaviour we can be confident we can predict the behaviour of a trusted individual to an acceptable level of certainty.
I trust my friends because they have acted in a demonstrably concistant manner towards me.
CTD writes:
How is 'religion' anything other than trusting God (or for some, priests and other delegates)?
One is asked to trust without any demonstration of the trust worthyness of a god or religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by CTD, posted 03-30-2007 9:30 AM CTD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 10:09 AM Larni has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 116 of 300 (392313)
03-30-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by nator
03-30-2007 9:48 AM


Re: I'm on topic
Nator writes:
"Trust" and "faith" are very different things.
One of the acrostics that was taught to me at church was that faith stood for this:
Forsaking
All
I
Trust
Him.
Evidently you find much more confidence in trusting yourself. And thats what makes you uniques and special! I think it would bother me more if you ran over to me (in the virtual world) hugged me and said that you now believed the same way that I do. We were foreknown and mean't to disagree. It spices up our conversations!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 9:48 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 10:14 AM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 117 of 300 (392314)
03-30-2007 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
03-30-2007 9:39 AM


Re: Look Before You Leap
quote:
What disturbs me, is that you are so proud of yourself.
Why shouldn't I be? I worked damn hard to change myself into more of the kind of person I always wanted to be. Why shouldn't I celebrate it and appreciate my ability to recover?
quote:
And you look down your nose at those who are weak (as you still are).
I am not trying to look down my nose at anyone. I just have no clue why someone who is struggling with life would think it is a good idea to just give up on themselves.
quote:
You project strength in ordeto protect yourself from being hurt again.
No, that's what I did before I did the work to recover.
I don't have to put up walls and protect my self anymore because what most people say to me doesn't affect my core feeling of worthiness. If people have issues with my behavior, then I can endeavor to change that behavior, but I no longer think of myself as less-than like I used to.
That makes me actually strong. I don't need to project anything.
quote:
And you are worshipped by many for that image you project.
Excellent! I always wanted to be worshipped by many!
quote:
Still alot of healing to be done in that heart of yours Nator.
Funny how some religious people need to imagine all unbelievers as unhappy and unfulfilled, isn't it, even if the unbelievers sincerely say that they are happy and fulfilled? And it is equally funny how religious people seem to think they know the hearts and minds of unbelievers much better than the individuals themselves, isn't it?
Please refrain from the patronizing attitude, rob.
Edited by nator, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 03-30-2007 9:39 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Rob, posted 03-30-2007 10:30 AM nator has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 118 of 300 (392315)
03-30-2007 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Larni
03-30-2007 10:02 AM


Re: Trust
CTD writes:
How is 'religion' anything other than trusting God (or for some, priests and other delegates)?
Larni responds writes:
One is asked to trust without any demonstration of the trust worthiness of a god or religion.
I trust my Christian counselor not because of his degrees or position but, rather, because I have observed that he is good with people in a social setting. After my first couple of visits, I became a bit more comfortable with him. I am still observing the demonstration of his effectiveness as he and I interact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Larni, posted 03-30-2007 10:02 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 119 of 300 (392316)
03-30-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
03-30-2007 9:50 AM


Re: The Rescuer Mode
I have a question for you, Rob. Why is it that you are always comfortable in the rescue mode? Can't you participate in the topic by discussing some of your hangups and addictions as well? It is ok to become vulnerable and honest.
You want vulnerability... vulnerability you shall receive. I'll do it as a moment of impluse, so I don't talk myself out of it.
This is a letter to my brother-in-law sent on Sun the 25th...
Hey Tom, you don't know how many times I have reminded myself I should write you. Actually our Lord reminds me. It wouldn't have taken long to type something like this up and print it out for easy mailing. But now that I have your email, it is easy enough. Forgive me, I think of you often.
The fact is Tom, Michelle let me read a letter where you said something to the effect that I was a role model, and you flattered me in a way that dropped my jaw and frankly sent me immediately into tears (it's true, your sister will tell you). I am not nearly the man you might think. But from your position, I suppose I do alright.
I struggle with depression Tom. And when I read that letter, I realized that I take so much of my life for granted. As Paul said, "oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death"?
I think you are a stronger man than you know, if for no other reason, because I am not as strong as you think. You must be careful in comparing yourself with others if that is in fact what you do. We compare ourselves to Christ, hence the depression!
The point is, that you and I suffer in very simmilar ways. That should be no suprise... we are both men. Our circumstances are different, but we both condemn ourselves and drag around this ball and chain. We know how to get rid of it.
It is just guilt. And as Christians, we can be freed from such pain. We both know the solution... repentance and obedience! It isn't just for conversion, it is I am afraid, the daily sacrifice our Lord spoke of when he said, 'offer yourselves daily as a living sacrifice'. And we do, even if only reluctantly and because of His strength and not our own. Long periods of thirst, puncuated by fountains of living water.
I'd like to give you some of that water today...
The pain, is our cross Tom. And we must bear it and not hide from it. An I know you do, so be confident that He is still with you. It is the only thing that will drive us to obey Him. It is the only thing that brought us home in the first place. Those cleansing tears of honest regret and acknowledgement of wrongdoing.
Better to suffer now, than to pay for intentionally living a lie eternally. Neither of us can do that, though in our utter depravity we wish to forget. But can you forget the Lord? I think not. What He did in that transaction is irrevocable. We are slaves to righteousness. He has the power to keep us.
I don't know about you, but I wish I could take off my mask. Others often try to rip it off. Sometimes they only offer to help. What do we do? We then run and hide and say not yet...not yet... I can't.
That is what I go through every day of my life Thomas, and I know in my heart that you do too. And the emotion wells up like a geyser ready to explode. If you think you are not free to let it go because of your environment, just realize that it is no difference here. We're going home brother, but we are not home yet. Take hold of the promise. He is keeping you securely in Himself, irrespective of the world's derision and insolence including that of your own wicked flesh.
The cross looks foolish to them. We certainly don't look llike son's of God on the outside. And our actions betray the truth that we are following in His footsteps and enduring the scorn of the evil one. And on the inside, we are being prepared for more than either you or I can comprehend. He woks in such incredible ways to remind us, "I am with you, even unto the end of the Age". He is in me, and speaks to you. What a wonderful ministry we give to each other.
2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
Our sickness of soul is far more deadly and desperate than we ever cared to see. Thank your Lord that He is able to show you yourself just a little at a time so that you don't just die from the agony. To see Him, is like sunlight shining back onto yourself. The fact that you see it, is the proof that you are in His care.
Your justification is by faith Thomas, your sanctification goes on by fire. And you are being sanctified.
Someone once wrote, "Intense is the agony, when the eye begins to see, when the ear begins to hear, when the pulse begins to pound; when the soul feels it's flesh... and when the flesh feels it's chains."
But Tom, there is another poem I found along 'the way'...
He came to my desk with a quivering lip--
The lesson was done--
"Dear teacher, I want a new leaf," he said;
"I have spoiled this one."
In place of the leaf, so stained and blotted,
I gave him a new one, all unspotted,
And into his sad eyes smiled--
"Do better now, my child."
I went to the throne with a quivering soul--
The old year was done--
"Dear Father, hast thou a new leaf for me?
I have spoiled this one."
He took the old leaf, stained and blotted.
And gave me a new one, all unspotted.
And into my sad heart smiled--
"Do better now, my child."
The next mountaintop is in sight Tom. It is past the valley of tears. And on the other side is another valley equally as terrifying. But upon cresting each summit, we climb higher into the arms of one who does not condemn us the way we condemn ourselves.
And when we finally get there, we will see for the first time what Lazarus saw, when he was summoned back from the grave.
After one moment when I bowed my head
And the whole world turned over and came upright,
And I came out where the old road shone white,
I walked the ways and heard what all men said,
Forests of tongues, like autumn leaves unshed,
Being not unlovable but strange and light;
Old riddles and new creeds, not in despite
But softly, as men smile about the dead.
The sages have a hundred maps to give
That trace their crawling cosmos like a tree,
They rattle reason out through many a sieve
That stores the sand and lets the gold go free:
And all these things are less than dust to me
Because my name is Lazarus and I live.
G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936)
Your brother in Christ, Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 9:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 10:18 AM Rob has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 120 of 300 (392317)
03-30-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
03-30-2007 10:04 AM


Re: I'm on topic
quote:
Evidently you find much more confidence in trusting yourself.
Well, it's this body that I steer around and make speak and do things. If I want to change the way I think and speak and do, then it's up to me to do it. I can get help and knowledge from lots of others, but those are only tools.
Who else can build a better me but me?
The same is true for everybody.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 10:04 AM Phat has not replied

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