Many Christians Lack Responsibility

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1) If our own righteousness is "as filthy rags" and we are expected to "Let Go And Let God", does that imply that we are abdicating our personal responsibility by allowing God to fix things?

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Isaiah was talking to his audience, not us today. So what we have to discern is whose acts of righteousness were like filthy rags. Isaiah is talking about those who sin against those who were gladly doing right and remembering God's ways.So unless one is "sinning" against people who are doing right, their righteous acts are not "as filthy rags".The catch phrase, let go and let God, isn't really abdicating personal responsibility although some tend to present it that way. IMO, it is a bumper sticker version of the the serenity prayer. People tend to have control issues. We try or want to control everything. Sometimes we do have to let go and understand what we actually have control of and what we don't and accept that we can't control everything.IOW, what Christians cannot change (don't have control over) they turn it over to God. People without religion accept what they cannot change and let it go.

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2) If we believe that Satan is alive and well on planet Earth, does that serve as a cop out? In other words, if we say that the world is in a mess due to Original Sin and figure that nothing will ever really improve until Jesus comes back, is that an abdication of our responsibility as members of the human race?

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Whether Satan is a cop out or not depends on what you consider his role to be.If he is viewed as working for God as a means to test humanity and we take responsibility for our actions in these tests, then no Satan isn't a cop out.If he is viewed as working on his own to make sure we fail and we blame him for our actions instead of taking responsibility, then yes, it is a cop out.

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3) Does God expect us to be mature, rational thinking beings or does He expect us to be unquestioning obedient servants?

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God expects us to mature and become spiritually mature and rational thinking beings, just as we expect our children to mature.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

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Think about it. Proverbs is a compilation of wise sayings over a period of time. Creative words from wise men. Do you feel that one sentence really characterizes the wisdom given in Proverbs?Notice several verses later: Don't rely on your own understanding for what? We really don't know the context in which the statement was originally made. All we have is human understanding, even when discerning what another human is telling us.David wrote a poem/song. He wasn't literally holding God's physical hand. Whether our parents are present or not, they are with us and all that they taught us is with us for counseling.I'm sure you've heard this wise saying from Proverbs: Overall, I don't think the wise men were telling people to check their reasoning at the door or that God wants us to remain children.God doesn't want us to remain children. The new covenant he describes in Jeremiah is really a description of a more mature relationship. He no longer has to teach or discipline, just as we don't need to continue teaching or disciplining our adult children. What we have taught them is now "written on their hearts" and they will not turn from it.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Interesting. At what point in our history do you think God decided we were "grown" enough to no longer need disciplining? Was there an event in the bible that this moment of transformation can be traced to?

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Whenever mankind realizes that a god isn't disciplining them.The moment was when God stopped talking.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I think your eclectic approach leads you in the wrong way Phat. The whole point is that we can only state anything about God because of the scriptures. As long as you simply lean on your OWN FEELINGS/THOUGHTS, then you are creating your own god, based on what YOU think is right or wrong.

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Christianity itself is eclectic. Many religions and customs have been assimilated into the Christian religion. I do agree that Phat seems to be adrift, but that probably because of his personality or at least the one we seem to see here at EvC.Phat seems to be someone who needs an outside anchor for stability and he hasn't found his yet. I think he feels God is his anchor, but when faced with a place like EvC and all the inconsistencies within Christianity he is still pretty much adrift.His anchor is not within himself probably because he doesn't trust himself. Sometimes I get that feeling from his writings.I don't feel that Phat has really lost his way, he just hasn't found the one way he trusts. He's trying to find a place to drop anchor within Christianity, but hasn't found solid ground yet.It will be difficult for him to grow, whether with religion or without religion, until he finds his solid ground to start.(Of course, Phat, I could be totally wrong in my observation. )

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You need to get back on fire. I would not tell you these things unless they were true. But I am His witness, I declare that he is true. Now forget men - i command you to turn back to me with all your heart.

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Nice catch phrase and metaphor, but what you're asking Phat to do is turn back to opinions of men of religion that you consider trustworthy. It is all still opinions of men, even the Bible.

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Being a Christian brings pain. A fairytale doesn't. A fairytale is that if you kill your neighbour, you will have 40 virgins in heaven.

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You realize that what you said really doesn't mean anything don't you?Being a Christian in the US doesn't bring pain. Pain and suffering, fun and pleasure are part of life whether one is a Christian or not. I don't see that Christians suffer any more just because they are Christians.Foundational myths contain valuable lessons, but we shouldn't confuse the creative delivery system with the actual lesson.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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When I said being a Christian brings pain, I am speaking from experience of the path we are on when we are being sanctified. Not a general statement about joy/pain being in the world, which is very obvious. I am declaring a fact, which is not up for debate - that through promptings of the Holy Spirit, comes pain. The new testament says to pick up your cross, "if we share in His sufferings". I should have mentioned to you that I am talking about things born again christians usually talk to one another about. (not use to talking to secularists, liberals etc.. I refer directly to those in Christ).

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But it isn't a fact. Not all Christians have those issues. Now people who are "worldly" for lack of a better term, I'm sure do have difficulties in changing their behavior and lifestyle to accommodate their congregation of choice, but it isn't across the board. I've seen people who have difficulty shedding "the old skin" and I've seen people who have no difficulty. Not as much shedding needed.

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A witness declares something to be true via experience/observation. I am not lying at all. Craig knows me, and has known me for a long time through correspondence. He knows I am telling the truth.

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You're telling the truth for you. What works for you may not work for him. Without a concrete anchor, he'll still float between your witness and someone else's witness.

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Denying sins the new Testament names, can bring suffering, but will not bring suffering for a none-believer who indulges in it still. Denying SELF under a biblical definition can be a painful process. THAT is my claim. How can this type of suffering be present? Have you read the letters from Paul or what? My whole position is coming from what I read in the NT, from a position of believing it all. That means I'm going to talk about things such as being sanctified, the law of the spirit of life, rather than sin and death, the flesh, the spirit, the natural man, etcc...all of it. This is what I study and practice.

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I don't drink alcohol and never have, so denying alcohol or getting drunk is very easy for me. See the point. If one is not committing the sins anyway, giving them up is not an issue.Remember that Paul and his group were in a very different culture and political situation. He was trying to get Greeks who, according to Paul, seemed to do the sins Judaism forbid; and bring them in line with acceptable Jewish behavior. I agree that changing from one way of life to a very different one is difficult or painful as you put it.Today, people grow up in the Christian church. They've been taught from the crib. When they hit 13 and decide to be baptized, if they aren't sooner, there is no major change in their lifestyle.I will agree that even those if they stray from the path, let's say in college and get wild, when they decide to come back into the flock, yes it can be difficult to change back.Pain is not a given.

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as for Phat, I believe his threads are an attempt to be accepted by his peers. He will mention something negative in the hopes of their approval, but seems to get even more agressive assults on God. He has to realize that pleasing men will bare little fruit. Pleasing God is what matters.

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I agree he seems to look for acceptance. That is part of not having an anchor. He looks for confirmation from the outside instead of the inside.I agree that trying to please others in an attempt to receive validation is fruitless. Pleasing God is easy to say, but in practical application there isn't a consistent path within Christianity.What we have of God is from man and it varies with the ages. There's no escaping man's input.

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The scriptures are God-breathed. This is what we believe. I reject your claims that they are just more opinion, as the Word of the Lord came through prophets of God. I hold it all as inerrant.

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Yes, the writings are inspired by God. If you believe they are dictated by God, that's fine. Obviously you can choose to accept or reject what you wish. Just remember, Phat has that same right.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The bible says that to question God is sin.

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God did not give a law that says we cannot question him, therefore it is not a sin to question God. A prophet may not presume to speak in God's name if God has not commanded him to speak for him.So we should test any information mankind puts before us.Questioning God is not a sin.
Questioning man is not a sin.
Questioning dogma is not a sin.
Questioning tradition is not a sin.Mankind is the one who doesn't want to be questioned.It is common sense to question before we act, since in the end, we are solely responsible for our actions.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz