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Author Topic:   God or No God - that is the question (for atheists)
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 300 (232432)
08-11-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Rahvin
08-11-2005 4:14 PM


Re: Timeland, Timeland Uber Alles
How can something exist before it exists?
If it existed, then ceased to exist, then existed again. If the big crunch happens and then there is another big bang, we will have existed before that big bang.
How's that? Anybody, iano or otherwise, disagree with my take or definitions? Is this not what the evidence suggests?
I just think its possible to talk about before the big bang, but this discussion is off topic here, feel free to reply to my post here:
Message 6

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 Message 176 by Rahvin, posted 08-11-2005 4:14 PM Rahvin has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 300 (233691)
08-16-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Rahvin
08-16-2005 1:19 PM


Re: Super Natural
If time began at the big bang, there can be no "before" and thus no casue.
If time existed before singularity there could. Time exists, then ceases to exist during singularity, then the Big Bang, then time exists again.
How do you propose there was a cause that somehow happened "before" time itself?
If the universe had a cycle of repeated Big Crunches and Big Bangs, then before this last Big Bang your talking about were the final moments of the last Big Crunch.
What exists on the line before the line is begins?
Singularity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Rahvin, posted 08-16-2005 1:19 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Rahvin, posted 08-16-2005 2:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 300 (233776)
08-16-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Rahvin
08-16-2005 2:10 PM


Re: Super Natural
How do you propose there was a cause that somehow happened "before" time itself?
If the universe had a cycle of repeated Big Crunches and Big Bangs, then before this last Big Bang your talking about were the final moments of the last Big Crunch.
Idle speculation. There is no evidence or reason to assume that the "Big Crunch" version of universal annihilation is true.
You asked how to propose that there could be a before the big bang. I did. You're welcome. Of course I cannot prove it, I don't see why I need to. Its just a proposition.
The expansion of the universe is actually speeding up!
That's debatable.
Besides, you can speculate about other universes and such as much as you want - the fact is there is no evidence that they exist. It's all speculation and philosophy at this point.
Well, there's not really any evidence that the singularity ever existed either. It too is speculation.
Wrong. Singularity is the point at the beginning of the line. Time existed in the sinularity as a single point, with no past or future. There could be nothing on the line if the line did not exist!
Draw a line. Here, I'll do it for you.
.---------------------------------->
See the dot? That's the singularity. The line is time (okay, it's actually a ray). The arrow is the present. Everything to the left of the arrow is the past. What is further to the left than the singularity?
-------.-------->
There ya go, now there is something before the singularity. The first '-' after the '.' is the big bang and the first '-' before the '.' is the last big crunch, which happened before singularity and was the cause of the singualrtiy.(more speculation btw)
The singularity encompassed all of time, just as it encompassed all of space (remember, they are related). Everything was a single point at the first moment, including time itself. There WAS no line. there was a point. There was no before, no after. Just an infinite present.
Idle speculation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Rahvin, posted 08-16-2005 2:10 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Rahvin, posted 08-16-2005 5:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 300 (233843)
08-16-2005 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Rahvin
08-16-2005 5:12 PM


Re: Super Natural
My conclusions are based on the nature of space-time as science understands it today.
quote:
The singularity encompassed all of time.
The future does not exist yet.
How does singularity encompass something that does not exist? How does todays science understand that?
{the singularity is} Just an infinite present.
.....
The singularity was the starting line.
.....
Using my ASCII visual aid, the singularity looked like this:
.
No future, no past. Just a dot.
Your conclusion is that the singularity was a line of infinite present with no future. Are you sure todays science supports your conclusion?
If I am mistaken, please show me where I can find a more accurate view.
I don't have time to look it up for you. You seem to have a good understanding of the big bang and the singularity, but you seem to throw in a lot of speculation as well.
it's just as likely that magic fairies from outside the universe created the Sungularity
No, its not just as likely. A Big Crunch vs Magic Fairies....same likelyhood? no.
____________________________________________________________________
Atheism is the lack of a belief in a deity. The A- prefix means "no" or "not."
Actually, this is a misconception. The word atheism comes from the greek word atheos which means godlessness. Take off the -os and add an -ism to make it the doctrine or belief of godlessness.

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