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Author | Topic: What Does the Second Coming Entail? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: He gives you a gift of entry that is not by right yours. But it is he (the owner) and he alone who decides whether it is yours "by right". If he gives it to you, it is yours, by right. That's what a gift is.
It was his money he took out and put back in. That's the part of the analogy (and the theology) that makes no sense. The nightclub owner didn't take money out of the till and give it to you to spend however and wherever you chose. He made you a guest in his establishment. The money in the till is utterly irrelevant. Similarly, God didn't give you the gift of eternal life to spend however and wherever you choose. He made you a guest in His home. The "payment" (Jesus' death) is utterly irrelevant. Making a show of taking the money out and putting it back in is the same as God making a show of "killing Himself" for your sins. The nightclub owner wouldn't do that - he'd just say, "Come in as my guest." Similarly, God wouldn't put on such a silly charade - He'd just say, "Come in as my guest." As for the "second coming", that would be like the nightclub owner calling you the next day to ask if you had a good time, if you got home okay and when you can come back and be his guest again. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Legally, the price of admission has been paid so you have as much right to be there as anyone else. The price of admission has not been "paid" - it has been waived. The flim-flamery of pretending to "pay" for you is what makes no sense. The issue is hospitality. Consider the prodigal son: he turned away from his father and it didn't work out. He returned home, hoping for a handout, but instead was received as the proverbial "long-lost son". Similarly, the nightclub patron expected to have to pay, but he received more than he expected - his entire evening was comped. The father/owner freely gave what was not expected. Compare:
quote: Notice that Jesus will "receive" us unto Himself - much like the prodigal son's father, or the nightclub owner. The "second coming" is not necessarily about Jesus moving from A to B. It's more about us being together, as the family He wants us to be. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: The first step is meeting Bob and the second step is trusting Bob. Once that ice is broken, you will want to join the club! Trust has to be earned. When we start hearing rumours that Bob has mob connections and that a lot of his former "friends" are wearing concrete overshoes, we might not be so eager to buddy up with him. Bob's button-man, iano, is essentially telling us, "Be Bob's friend, or else." What happens to people who turn Bob down? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: People would never turn Bob down who have met Him. But, as others have already pointed out, we don't get to "meet" Bob until it's too late. When he meets you, Bob decides whether you're his "friend" or fish-food.
If Bob is anything like His reputation, He will be known sooner or later. But Bob's reputation is the problem. He had a penchant for drowning people in the past. Now his henchmen are threatening to necklace anybody he doesn't like. Bob's people need to downplay his reputation, not brag about it.
Then people can draw their own conclusions based on Bob and not on Iano or myself. But Bob wrote in his diary, "By their fruits ye shall know them." The only way we know Bob is by the people who surround him. We have East-Side Phat smiling and inviting us to the club, and Bent-Nose Iano jamming a gun in our ribs. What does that tell us about Bob's ability to choose his employees? When Bob comes knocking on the door (for the second time), he has an uphill battle to convice anybody that he's just a "legitimate businessman". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: jhuger writes: Please reconcile these two statements: "With God, nothing is impossible", "You can't be saved unless you accept Jesus as your savior." Its obvious. with God, nothing is impossible. Without God, lots of things are impossible. Huger's point would be: if nothing is impossible with God, then He could save us with or without our cooperation. Zap! You're saved! Saying that He can't do it unless we accept Him diminishes His power. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: I've met Bob, IMHO and IMHB, and will say that there are no other clubs quite like His and no other owners quite like Him. Have you ever been to Bob's place up at the lake? Much nicer than that dive. Much nicer class of people. I like to watch the ducks. By the way, I bet iano didn't think of the imagery of a "smokin' hot-spot" when he thought up that analogy. ("Free brimstone for the ladies during Happy Hour.") Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Somehow or other you have managed you contrive a situation where you are able to accept things that you do not beleive (which is not what accepting is). Suppose you go down to pay your gas bill and the clerk tells you it's already been paid. You can believe it or not - it doesn't matter. Your "acceptance" of the gift is not even an issue. You can't even refuse to accept it - it's a done deal. The debt is off the books - there is no way to put it back on. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: You are crossing over into Grace County in the State of Forgiveness! Whats up with that? I have always said that salvation is a done deal. My point here was that your belief in your salvation is irrelevant. You are "saved", whether you believe it or not. That has no effect on the fact that we must behave correctly. Back to our analogy: Suppose you leave the gas company office firmly believing that your bill is not paid. At home, you don't bother to turn on your furnace because you think the gas is turned off. You shiver through the night and two days later you're found frozen solid. Your belief has no effect on whether or not your bill is paid. But your actions determine your fate. Conversely, you can fervently believe that your bill is paid, but if you don't turn on the furnace, you'll still freeze to death. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: I'll pass on your analogy if you don't mind Ringo. And I'll pass on juggling flaming chainsaws, if you don't mind. I'm about as good at that as you are at analogies. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: The Second Coming assumes that Christ is real.... I'm not sure that the "second coming" has to entail Jesus beaming down to earth again. Do you think He's going to be laid in a manger again? In Bethlehem again? More important than a physical movement from A to B, I think the second coming means a reunion with Our Father, in the manner of the prodigal son's return to his home. Who does the returning is secondary. It is a second coming together rather than an apparition. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Re: Another christian who struggles with his bible Its a pretty mis-guided Christian who doesn't. Not really. The Christian life may be difficult, but the Christian message is simple. Those who struggle with the Bible do so because their dogmatic preconceptions just don't fit the words. Hence, the incredible contortions that we see here every day. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
arachnophilia writes: the bible is not all message, but even the message can be confusing at times. The key to understanding a communication is to filter out what is not "message". Once the central theme is clear, the details can be brought in to amplify it. The "fundie" approach, which I was refering to, is the opposite: Look at the communication as a whole and try to patch every detail together into a "coherent" whole. That is where iano finds his struggle, it seems. Since it was never intended to be a coherent whole, his attempts to make it so are inevitably futile. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
arachnophilia writes: the fundamentalists have a message in mind, and try to fit the details to their preconcieved idea of what the message is. That's what I said (or tried to say ). They want to put the message in instead of taking it out. (Am I to blame for steering this thread off-topic yet again? ) Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: ...once you suppose evil eminates from God.... Everything emanates from God. That's kinda the definition of "God". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Definitions eminate from man - incorrect or otherwise. And man - incorrect or otherwise - emanates from God. QED, as they say. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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