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Author Topic:   What Does the Second Coming Entail?
ringo
Member
Posts: 17653
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 196 of 238 (320539)
06-11-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by iano
06-11-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Good God!
iano writes:

A lying God can lie about creating evil.

If He lies, He has created evil.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 2:36 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2464 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 197 of 238 (320543)
06-11-2006 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by iano
06-11-2006 2:36 PM


Getting very off-topic!
Hold on hold on - this is a clear attempt to try and drag us away from the question that Iano is unable/unwilling to answer.

It's IRRELEVENT what any of us think about God lying/our individual belief in god/if the bible is true etc. We were quite clearly discussing what god said in the bible.

Let's try to get him back on topic -

What is the source IN THE BIBLE for your claim that "BRING" actually means "an absence of good" when God says I bring evil.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 2:36 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 207 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 5:47 PM CK has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 198 of 238 (320564)
06-11-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by iano
06-11-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Good God!
Who says there are any rules in fact? You believe a god who can lie to you?

you believe in something that is incapable of something, and yet call it god?

More than tough I would suggest. You cannot know. You cannot trust what God says - can you?

you are conflating "can" and "does" again.

Based? One cannot base faith on anything if God is capable of lies.

again, do you have a girlfriend? or a wife? (or boyfriend? husband?)

that person is capable of lying to you. how can believe anything they say, knowing they are fully capable of telling untruths?

I'm not saying it is a lie. God creates evil that is true. On the other hand you are saying it is true that he creates evil. On what basis - given that you say God can lie? A lying God can lie about creating evil. Maybe God cannot create anything at all. There might not be anything such as evil at all - just moral relativism

Nope, it seems to me like you end up going in cicles when you suppose God can lie to you.

all i said is that god can do anything he wants, including creating evil and telling lies. you are attempting to play a rather silly semantics games that requires we conflate ability with action.

you brought up the "lie" thing, ironically, defending the claim that bible must be lying about god creating evil, or god calling his own actions evil. you think you have cornered me, i know -- but your argument falls apart because it based on a simple logical fallacy.

you, on the other, hold that god cannot lie, and the bible is the word of god -- and so god MUST be telling the truth about creating evil.

stab at me all you want; you're holding the wrong end of the knife.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 199 of 238 (320566)
06-11-2006 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by ringo
06-11-2006 2:44 PM


either way...
let's explore this for a second.

iano writes:

A lying God can lie about creating evil.

If He lies, He has created evil.

if god can lie -- and DOES lie -- he is using (and creating) evil.

if god cannot lie, then he is telling the truth about creating evil.

looks to me like that pretty much solves that issue.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 200 of 238 (320569)
06-11-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by CK
06-11-2006 2:50 PM


Re: Getting very off-topic!
What is the source IN THE BIBLE for your claim that "BRING" actually means "an absence of good" when God says I bring evil.

no no, ck, it's worse than that.

quote:
Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.


i want to know how "I CREATE EVIL -love, GOD" is compatible with iano's position that god is incapable of evil, and that evil does not eminate from god.

Edited by arachnophilia, : tags


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 3014 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 201 of 238 (320586)
06-11-2006 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 3:50 PM


What is entailed in contradiction?
arach,

As Isaiah and Iano contradict one another doesn't it come down to which witness one chooses either Isaiah or Iano?

lfen

Edited by lfen, : corrected mispelling

Edited by lfen, : I wanted to correct the misspelling of mispelling but find the software won't allow me to. So I'm out of here, my brain and or fingers are fading.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 202 of 238 (320588)
06-11-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by lfen
06-11-2006 4:55 PM


Re: What is entailed in contradiction?
with all due respect to iano, i'll go with isaiah.


אָרַח

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CK
Member (Idle past 2464 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 203 of 238 (320589)
06-11-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by lfen
06-11-2006 4:55 PM


Re: What is entailed in contradiction?
I'll go with Isaiah as well - in the context of which is mostly likel y to represent the viewpoints of the christian god. I'm afraid in this case, I'll have to go with the original source.

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Legend
Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 204 of 238 (320592)
06-11-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by lfen
06-11-2006 4:55 PM


Re: What is entailed in contradiction?
actually, given the false prophecies in Isaiah my money's on iano.

It's a close call though.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 205 of 238 (320595)
06-11-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by ringo
06-11-2006 2:44 PM


Re: Good God!
If He lies, He has created evil.

No doubt thats one of the many Gospels according to Ringo. You see, this is where is all gets amusingly ridiculous. Did God say lying is evil? And if he did, was he lying about what constitutes evil?


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 206 of 238 (320596)
06-11-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Legend
06-11-2006 5:23 PM


Re: What is entailed in contradiction?
:)

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iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 207 of 238 (320598)
06-11-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by CK
06-11-2006 2:50 PM


Re: Getting very off-topic!
It's IRRELEVENT what any of us think about God lying/our individual belief in god/if the bible is true etc. We were quite clearly discussing what god said in the bible.

Irrelevant whether God tells the truth or not? Poppycock. Thats fuzzy thinking on a par with the Ringo-position of denying that the bible is (at least for the sake of discussion )"the word of God"

Forgetting the argument about how one links God creating evil with him being evil for a sec. Take that unmade argument as a given:

"I create evil. But I am also a liar and lying is not evil. And I lied about saying I create evil. I didn't. I'm good. A good liar in fact"

Think before you post CK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 2:50 PM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2464 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 208 of 238 (320599)
06-11-2006 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by iano
06-11-2006 5:47 PM


Re: Getting very off-topic!
Dodge dodge dodge.

Isn't it time you tried to do this debate into one on the nature of reality.

The questions are straight forward -

Are we to take your word over God's?
Are you a literalist or not?

Ian writes:

Think before you post CK

I do - every time I (or someone else does) repeat the question and you dodge it, it erodes your credibility a little more and enhances your reputation as a dodger. It's a pretty clear strategy isn't it?

Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Edited by CK, : Typos.


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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 209 of 238 (320600)
06-11-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by iano
06-11-2006 5:35 PM


Re: Good God!
No doubt thats one of the many Gospels according to Ringo. You see, this is where is all gets amusingly ridiculous. Did God say lying is evil? And if he did, was he lying about what constitutes evil?

10.0!

that's quite a backflip, iano.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 5:35 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 6:13 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 210 of 238 (320602)
06-11-2006 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 3:44 PM


Re: Good God!
you believe in something that is incapable of something, and yet call it god?

All God has to do in order to be God is to be capable of whatever he is capable of. No more. He does not have to be capable of simply anything at all anyone can dream up.

you are conflating "can" and "does" again.

I didn't say he lies. I say he doesn't. YOU say he is capable of it (or at least that must be inferred from your position that he is capable of simply anything at all). And the natural outworking of that is that you cannot trust what he says. Because you cannot know if what he says about anything is true. Don't dodge the horns of the dilema you are impaled upon. You cannot trust him as it stands.

I on the other hand, can.

that person is capable of lying to you. how can believe anything they say, knowing they are fully capable of telling untruths?

We are both making assumptions in the end Arach. You assume that God cannot be trusted for you assume he is capable of lies. I assume that God can be trusted for I assume he cannot lie.

Whatever. Any discussion based on your premise falls at the first fence "We don't know if God is lying or not" The only way you can discuss anything is to assume, like me, that he never does. And if you don't agree with me on this, watch me chase you around for a while asking "Arach, how do you know God is telling the truth here" To which you must respond "I assume he is" in order to progress.

You will have to assume he does everytime. Which means you actually hold, my own position.

you brought up the "lie" thing, ironically, defending the claim that bible must be lying about god creating evil, or god calling his own actions evil.

I never said God was lying as a defence. That was you arguing that to question "I create evil" means that one is making God out to be a liar. The issue actually arose out of your notion that God is capable of "simply anything at all"

stab at me all you want; you're holding the wrong end of the knife.

I'm afraid I'm not. But I don't want to stab at you. I want you to see how ludicrous your position that God is capable of simply anything at all (which includes lying) is. You will hopefully find that you must believe like me, that he always tells the truth - in order to discuss anything on this board.

When we park this issue we can go back and look at "I create evil" with a view to discussing whether that means evil eminates from within God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 3:44 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 6:29 PM iano has responded

  
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