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Author Topic:   Who won the Collins-Dawkins Debate?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 279 (376218)
01-11-2007 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by truthlover
01-11-2007 12:45 PM


Not sure what there is to discuss?
You titled the topic "Who won the Collins-Dawkins Debate?"
I think that might be part of the problem finding folk to discuss it.
What stopped me from really replying was that I think the issue is self-evident.
We cannot know whether or not GOD exists.
We can believe GOD exists, even believe very strongly that GOD exists, but in the final analysis it will be reality that determines the truth of that belief.
If GOD exists, She does exist regardless of any evidence GOD does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, He does not exist regardless of any evidence It does exist.
I think debating the existence or non-existence of GOD is somewhat futile. We simply cannot determine the truth of the matter.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 26 by Rob, posted 01-13-2007 2:48 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 279 (376942)
01-14-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Larni
01-14-2007 8:46 AM


Weak little belief systems.
Why do believers always give god based motivations to people who do not subscribe to belief in gods? I don't have a god shaped hole in my head that needs filling.
Because they have weak little belief systems that get threatened when anyone seems to challenge them. They simply are unable to imagine that others hold belief systems that are both stronger and more grounded than theirs or that the REAL GOD would not give a damn whether anyone believed in Her or not.
When someone says something as silly as "These people want to hear that science is God." they are only projecting their own insecurity on others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Larni, posted 01-14-2007 8:46 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 279 (377335)
01-16-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by truthlover
01-16-2007 7:36 AM


I sure would.
I think that is a great idea. We did one once that was similar, on why God is Good, but I would love to see a discussion directly dealing with suffering.
The old thread was at Message 1

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by truthlover, posted 01-16-2007 7:36 AM truthlover has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 265 of 279 (383870)
02-09-2007 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
02-09-2007 11:51 AM


On Miracles
One problem that exists in Miracles is that the only real difference between a Miracle and some other event is attribution. Those of us who believe in miracles attribute them to GOD.
There is nothing that restricts GOD from using very prosaic means to accomplish Her desired end. It can be as common as aspirin or as unexplained as Enlightenment.
The one thing about Miracles that can be said is that they are NOT ubiquitous.
In Luke 4:21-32 we have an account of Jesus speaking in the synagogue at Nazareth. He points to two traditional tales that would have been known to the audience, one involving a widow in Sidon, the other the curing of Naaman the Syrian.
He goes on to say that there were many starving widows during the period of the first incident and many lepers at the time of the second.
Miracles are by definition, non-scientific and beyond confirmation. They are not subject to test or verification.
If GOD so wishes, He is perfectly capable of influencing a doctor to go one step further, preform one more test, prescribe one specific medication that leads to some given outcome.
When the instance is examined, all that will be found is absolutely normal, nothing supernatural, nothing extraordinary, yet the instance may still be a miracle.
A miracle can also be as inexplicable as sudden remission of a disease or survival from an event that should have killed the person.
The objection often raised to that position is that it is then impossible to tell a miracle from any other event. In the first case all seems easily explained by science, in the second it could be assigned to chance or simply "unknown".
Those are valid points yet also irrelevant.
Miracles exist in the reality of the individual. They could well be confirmation bias, or simply fantasy. They could also be true miracles.
The task for you is to make clear why the way we approach objective study of such things is inappropriate for your own claims concerning prayer and God.
The reason science is an inappropriate method for study is that science assumes repeatability and consistency. Neither of those apply to miracles.
Miracles are the result of an act of will of GOD.
While man can petition GOD, it is GOD that responds and Her response is outside human control. Miracles are not part of the natural world, they are supernatural by definition.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
Edited by jar, : still can't spall

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 02-09-2007 11:51 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Nighttrain, posted 02-10-2007 6:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 279 of 279 (384279)
02-10-2007 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Nighttrain
02-10-2007 6:48 PM


Re: On Miracles
In the particular instance I was quoting it is not even Jesus performing the miracle. The story is recounting how Elisha cleansed Naaman the Syrian. The point of the particular narration is that miracles are not generic, are not ubiquitous but rather unique and individual.
Nor is the point of miracles to impress.
As Jesus is quoted in Luke 4:
25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
It is not what GOD can do, rather it is what GOD does.
This is why miracles are not a good subject for scientific study, they are neither repeatable or consistent, instead each one is an individual event caused by the will of GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Nighttrain, posted 02-10-2007 6:48 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
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