are christian wives respected?

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I am not married but I liken it to the following example. I could work for a guy that sees me as his lesser partner, I choose not to, I work for someone who values my opinion, however I certainly can appreciate the fact that ultimately it will be him that takes the fall for bad decisions and not me! Lol?heheheh

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See, the thing of it is, I don't view marriage as anything at all like a employee/employer relationship. Not even close.And what about the situation where a man works for a woman?

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Although I am certain there will be some repercussion for my participation, but it is he that will take the brunt of the heat for it. However I would never intentionally entice him to make a bad decision because I respect him and we are on the same team, I depend on him and trust his ability to make sound decisions, otherwise I wouldn?t be here, and vice versa. Thus we see eye to eye and that is why he hired me and why I continue to choose to work for him, because we are equally yoked so to speak on how we view a working business relationship. There are certainly many people in my company that doesn?t see our standard mode of business the same way we do, who cares? It works for us.

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It is certainly easier to have less responsibility and less accountability, but in a marriage, this would seem to translate to being considered childlike. If a wife abdicates equal responsibility and accountability for the marriage to her husband, then she ultimately can be told what to do. In fact, she would HAVE to be told what to do, by definition.If all you want out of a marriage is a business relationship, then OK, but wow, that seems pretty non-spiritual to me.Now, about the Adam and Eve stuff...Do you believe that they really existed and the story as it is told really happened, or is it a story told by a male-dominated culture to try to explain why it is OK for women to be subjugated by men for all of time?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-07-2003]

Hi Freaky,Thanks for putting so much effort and thought into your posts. What you say makes sense and I follow it, but your reply about a husband and wife submitting to God's will isn't actually an answer to what I was asking, unfortunately.I will try to clarify. I was talking about the Biblical passages concerning the directive that wives should submit to their husbands in all things. You countered by saying that husbands and wives actually submit to each other. I wondered how you could be the leader of the marriage at all times (meaning your wife never leads you) if you were also submitting to her some of the time.I know your wife will always submit and never lead, but I want to know how you, as the leader of the marriage, can submit and lead at the same time.If it is true submission, then you do it even when you don't really want to. Submission only when you agree or want to isn't actually submission.If you actually do submit to the will of your wife, but you insist that she never leads, is it that the marriage is leaderless at the times you submit to her, or is she actually the leader at those times and you don't want to admit that she is?These are several of the logical, practical consequences of the statements you have made. They don't, frankly, make a whole lot of sense to me.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-07-2003]

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subjugated? Hey we are not fighting a war here?.we are talking about a marriage with Christ as the focus. Subjugated? Who is subjugated? Where does it say anything at all about women or more specifically wives (which is the topic) are supposed to be domineered, conquered of subjected to anything? subjugated? As in under enemy control? That?s an extreme if I ever heard one.

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Subjugated, as in "having power over". The bible says, enphasis mine:* Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. --Gen 3:16* And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.-- Num 31:15-19What do you suppose "for yourselves" means* And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her.--Deut 21:11-13Must be great to have God sanction your rape* Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two?--Judges 5:30* But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning.--Judges 19:25* The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man.--I Cor 11:3* For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.--I Cor11:7* Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak.... And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. --I Cor 14:34-35* Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord--Eph 5:22* For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.... Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.--Eph 5:23-24The Bible is pretty clear here. It doesn't say "Wives, submit to your husbands only when he is being reasonable, and you have leeway when he isn't."* Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.--Col 3:18* Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--I Tim 2:11-12* Teach the young women to be ... obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.--Titus 2:4* Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.--I Peter 3:1

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Ok Ill go with the Merriam Webster definition of subjugated: 1. to bring under control and governance as a subject : CONQUER 2. to make submissive : SUBDUE

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That seems about right.

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Or how about the same thesaurus version of subjugated: CONQUER 1, bear down, beat down, crush, defeat, overpower, reduce, subdue, vanquish Related Word compel, coerce, force 2 Synonyms ENSLAVE, enthrall.

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That seems pretty accurate from a Biblical perspective.

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Well if you are going to choose to live by the biblical scriptures than yes one would have to assume that part is just as true as any other part.

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So, do you believe that bats are birds and that unicorns ever existed and that hares chew the cud and that there was a worldwide flood despite there not being a shred of physical evidence for any of these things?

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From what I hear to be able to call yourself a true Christian living a Christian way of life you cant pick and choose what you want to believe in and throw out the rest.

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Do you wear mixed fiber clothing? IT is an abomination to do so, according to the Bible. Do you stone homosexuals to death? You are commanded to do so by the Bible.

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To each his own, whether or not I believe it is irrelevant. I dont ever foresee myself getting married, I just gave my limited understanding of why it was set up that way in the Christian bible.

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Why give the reasons why it is set up that way, but then not address the objections and contradictions?I still dont think however it is as severe or demeaning as some make it out to be tho. I think there is some sort of common sense clause that if your husband asks you to do something against biblical laws or that is just down right mean or stupid then no, or course you are not supposed to submit.The husband is supposed to love his wife as he loves himself, (and as Christ loves the church) he is supposed to be Christ-like in his approach to her and by that definition he is obviously not supposed to abuse her in anyway or be overpowering, domineering or demeaning. So if he is holding up his end of the bargain and is treating her as Christ treats His church, then her part of the deal is to trust him and submit to his will as his will is supposed to be the same as the will of God (as so should hers).I still believe the general idea is to submit to one another as you submit unto Christ, but the husband will be the one held most accountable for his family unit when it comes down to it just as the church will held accountable to Christ and so on. Its like God is just saying, hey Eve dont make it hard on Adam, talk to hubby before you eat the next apple, and listen to him if he has got it right because its him that is going to take the whole blame next time. (ok maybe that is not what He is saying but that in IMO is how I interpreted it)I have certainly met men that seem to take that notion (of being the boss) to an extreme and are possessive and mean because they think the bible says its their right, but that is not what it says. It does not say Husbands, force your wives to submit, conquer them and beat them down if they don?t submit (as a matter of fact it says just the opposite), it simply says that the wife should willingly submit to her husband. It doesn?t say anything anywhere about forcing the wife to submit or to be subjugated, if it does please show me where.I think people too often times take things out of context, they see a line or two they like or dont like so they try capitalize on it and set it in stone or invalidate the whole thing. Like I said, to each his own.

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Yeah, so you don't like spiritual and biblical marriages.

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I never said that.I still have no idea what it means to have a Biblical marriage. All of the explanations given to me were vague and contradictory.I truly do not think I am incapable of understanding most concepts if they are explained well. I am also in a successful marriage myself, so I do have some experience with this situation.All of you tried and tried to explain things to me, so you must have thought that it was explainable in the first place.I tend to think that the fault lies with the teachers, not the student, in this case.Or maybe the materials the teachers were given to teach do not lend themselves to inquiry or logical analysis.

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Why all the big fuss? We don't impose our way of life upon people like you.

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"People like me?" Just what kind of "people" am I, Satcomm?

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We merely tell you what works and leave it up to you to decide.

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Here is the real rub of the issue, Satcomm.First you say that "you don't impose your way of life on 'people like me'", but then you turn around and say, "We merely tell you what works and leave it up to you to decide." This strongly implies that you think that all marriages must be like yours to be successful.The only problem with this is that if you look at the divorce statistics, your way actually works less successfully than the national average. People who are in marriages where the gender roles are strict and the man is the leader of the family get divorced at a rate that is higher than the national average.You have always ignored these data completely, choosing instead to believe what you want to believe instead of what is reality.

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You indicate that Christian wives are not respected. I'm telling you that you're wrong and you don't understand. I'm also telling you that Christian marriages do work and can be very happy relationships.

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I never said they couldn't work or be happy. I was just exploring the question of if it is possible for a woman to be respected in a marriage when she does not hold as high a status as her husband. Is it possible for him to respect her if he can potentially impose his will upon hers?The fact that your response to this perfectly reasonable, logical conclusion that there is a leader in the marriage and it is always the man and never the woman is "you don't understand and I don't have to explain anything", is very telling.I don't think you can explain it. I can only assume that it is a glaring logical contradiction that you simply choose to ignore.

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It's been proven to me based on my own marriage and lifestyle. And it's irrelevant whether or not I can prove it to you or anyone else.

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...and yet you tried to explain it to me, and failed. All you were ever able to do is give vague rules that you follow, but any time I took them to their logical conclusions or asked detailed questions about the nature of what it means to be a leader in a marriage and what it means to not be the leader, you became very silent.I think it is VERY relevant whether or not you can explain it, because you basically say that yours is the model that is the very best way and that everyone should follow it if they want a successful marriage.If a participant in one of these "best" marriages, and the leader of one, can't even explain what it means to be the leader of said marriage, then what does that say about the quality of the model?I never said that individuals shouldn't do what they want to. What I am objecting to is the idea that you and others have had that your way is the best way for everyone, when the data show quite a different picture.Surely you realize that simply telling me "It works; believe me because I say so." is a pretty lame argument, don't you?I mean, I can explain how my marriage works quite easily, and in as much detail as you want.Also, I asked what temptations women are more prone to than men, and what biblical support you have for your idea that women must never lead a family or a church.

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First I'd like to start by saying I love and respect my wife, I think I've been able to show that Christian marriages are the not the dictatorship you thought.

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Well, yes and no.I still do not really know what it means to be a leader in a Christian marriage, and what it means to be a follower in a Christian marriage.I can't even get you or anyone here to tell me how you can be a leader in your marriage at all times, yet you can submit to your wife, too. Who is leading when you are submitting, and/or how can you do both at the same time?I hope you do not blame me for my confusion here, because I am not the one who made the claim that this is what happens.Is it an unreasonable question?

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You have again made the statement that my wife is submitting to my will. I thought we talked about this in one of my last posts where I stated that in a Christian marriage the husband and the wife must put down their own personal will for God's will for the couple.

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But then how is there a leader in a marriage without a follower?If you lead, then your wife must follow, correct? If you lead, then at some point your wife is submitting her will and/or abdicating some descisions she could make equally with you or on her own, to you.This is only what you have explained to me as what happens in your non-egalitarian marriage. Please correct me if I am wrong about what you have said.

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You also made a statement about wives not holding as high a status as the husband. As Christians there is no status here, as we are all members of the body of Christ. Each with our own function and purpose. Who is to say that the heart has a higher status than the lung?

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The lungs and heart collaborate on everything, though. The heart doesn't make ultimate descisions about what both organs will do, or vice versa.You have implied that the responsibility on certain descisions rests ultimately with you but not your wife. This is not what happens with organs.I would agree that the heart and lung analogy works in an egalitarian, leaderless marriage, but not with a leader/follower model.

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When you look at Genesis it says about man and wife that the two shall be made one flesh, Jesus also talks about this exactly. So in marriage we have been made one flesh in God's eyes. If the members of your body did not submit to the head you would find that the body quickly became disfunctional.

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"One flesh" also implies no leader, or equal partnership, rather than a male leader and a female follower.

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The head cannot survive without the body and, likewise the body the without the head. The two must function together, neither is more important, or holds more status than the other.

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I am sorry, but there seems to be a lot more in the Bible indicating that men are of a higher status than women than not. If you are choosing to downplay this, fine, but then you don't have much Biblical ground to stand on to support your idea that there must be a male leader in every marriage, because it seems to me that then it's just picking and choosing what you will follow literally and what you will take as metaphor.

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In a Christian marriage the "body" must be in submission to Christ. Not just one part but the whole. This said Christs will should be the will of the "body", it should be a body led by God so that the body can accomplish the will of God.

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I understand this, but then why must the man always lead the marriage? It does not follow from "one flesh" and the "body" of the marriage must submit to Christ, to "the man must lead the woman."[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-11-2003]

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I became silent because this topic didn't particularly interest me anymore.

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Possible translation: I have no answers for your questions and/or won't address the logical contradictions in my views.

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The same thing was being said from both sides over and over again.

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Actually, I think I have been consistent, but you all have been pretty contradictory.

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I accepted the conclusions that:

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1) You don't understand.

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That is certainly true. Not for lack of asking lots of questions of clarification which were never addressed, however.

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2) You lash out and attack what you don't understand.

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Look, I have been very reasonable for pretty much this whole conversation. I am sorry if logical inquiry and serious, detailed questioning of this issue makes you uncomfortable, but I have only been debating in good faith.I have only wanted to understand, in detail, the nature of what it means to be a leader and a non-leader in a christian marriage, and also how one can be a leader and submit at the same time.Don't blame me if it's not explainable. I never claimed to understand; you supposedly do, seeing as how you live that way, and claim that it's the best way.It seems that I am the one who has hit a nerve if you can't answer my simple questions and choose instead to accuse and divert attention from the subject.

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3) Christian marriages do have the capacity of working, regardless of statistics.

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I never said they didn't.What I am challenging is the claim you and others have made that they are the best way, most likely to lead to success.They simply aren't. if you accept the data.If you do not accept the data, why not?

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4) Many Christian wives are well respected and are not "held back" or "suppressed".

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I don't really know if that's true, because I don't know what it means to be a follower in a marriage. At some point, if you never lead, and there exists a leader, you will submit your will to the leader.I claim that this is suppression, agreed upon or not. You may disagree with my take on it on philosophical grounds, but to ignore or deny that submission to anothers' will takes place in a marriage that has a leader (and by definition, a follower) is to be intellectually dishonest, IMO.

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5) It's unnecessary for me or anyone else to "prove" it to you because your mind is already made up as to what works and what doesn't work.

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Absolutely, positively untrue!!!I simply have this thing about not accepting arguments that consist of "It is true because I say so."Notice how I accepted TB's statements regarding the status of women in Christian marriages.

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I believe that God intentionally created men and women differently so that together they would be whole.

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Hmm, then are unmarried people incomplete?

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In general men have a more logical way of thinking and women are more emotionally based thinkers.

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First you would have to show that this is innate to the genders and not culturally-based and learned.(It is most likely untrue, at any rate. Logic is not "natural" to humans at all regardless of gender, and all humans are very emotional creatures, despite our male emotion-stifling culture. I have research to back up both assertions, if you would like to see it)Then you would have to show that one was more suited to leadership than the other. {It seems that you imply that because men "are more logical" they make better leaders)

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I think that when God made a partner for man that it wasn't because Adam was lonely, rather that he was incomplete. Eve was made to complete Adam.

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But that is only one of the accounts of creation. The other one has man and woman created together, with no mention of woman being created for man.

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God has made man head of the household, I don't know why but God doesn't always give the why to everything.

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Forgive me, but that is a copout. You like the part where the man is the head of the household, so you follow that, but you gloss over or blatantly contradict all the parts where it says that the man is the ruler of the woman in all things and that the woman should always submit to the man.You are full of contradictions concerning what of the Bible you follow literally and what you don't, or what you follow at all and what you ignore.When you want to support what you do, you say "it's god's will", but then you explain away everything else you don't like.You ignore the obvious; that the Bible was written in a time where women were considered chattel and had a status far, far below any male.You want to keep hold of just that last vestige of male superiority, yet refuse to see it as such. THAT is supremely illogical and contradictory.

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Even though man is the head of the household, the leader of his family, this doesn't mean that men always make the right decisions. Alot of times there is an emotional side to a decision/action that a man may not see, or take into account in his decision/action. When he discusses this with the woman she will see this flaw in his thinking and help him to correct, or balance his thinking. She is his helper, and in this way men must not go it alone without their helper.

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[I can already see you saying "what if the man is more emotional and the woman more logical" In that case just switch it around either way they balance each other out. But the man still remains the leader]I have already stated that we must each submit our own wills in order to do God's will.

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Wives submit to the leadership of their husbands, husbands submit to the needs of their wives. My wife may want me to go shopping with her (i hate shopping with my wife it's a test of my patience) however she likes me to go with her. I don't want to go, but I go because I love her, she wants to spend time together, and this is what she wants to do. (granted this is a poor example)

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In this discussion, I have never been interested in little day to day things, like shopping even though you hate it.Besides, I don't think that your wife MAKES you go with her because you must submit to her will. You CHOOSE to go with her because it makes her happy.The difference seems to be that she MUST submit to your leadership if she is to be a good Christian wife.There is a big difference between choosing to submit sometimes and being required to submit at all times.

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My wife submits to my leadership out of love for first Christ and then for me, however I submit to her in other ways, out of love for first Christ and then for her. In this way God completes both of us fully and without want, making us one flesh.

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As usual my wording is poor leaving gaps to be picked at, though the concept is here. It does not conform to most modern thinking, but the ways of God do not conform to the ways of man. Man must conform his ways to God's.

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Thanx for the discussion.

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But you interperet the word of God to suit your own preferences. You say that you conform, but there are many very clear things in the Bible that you do not conform to.Thank you as well.{Fixed one quote box - Adminnemooseus}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-19-2003]

Freaky, I just wanted to add here that I still don't know what it means to be a leader or a follower in a Christian marriage.I don't know what it means practically to be a follower or a leader in a Christian marriage; you have assured me that there is no oppression or suppression, or that there is no status difference, but all you have given are assurances.Every time I ask a "what if" question, you dance around the obvious power difference there is between you and your wife.According to everything you have said to me, and what the Bible says, your wife is required to submit her will to yours, as you are always her leader in the marriage. You are never required to give up your will to hers, because she is never your leader in the marriage.You say that men should listen to their "emotional" wives, but since they are the leader, they are not required to.This is a significant power difference, plain and simple. With power differences in personal relationships comes subjegation; they are two sides of the same coin.I still don't know how it is that you are able to lead your wife and submit to your wife at the same time.