Where did God come from?

God cannot be proven or disproven this is the known status of the argument between "generic" atheists and "generic" theists.The crux of the issue whether anyone wants to accept it or not is the fact that desire for God can only originate from Him. No matter how miniscule if you have desire to know, want, or desire God then this is a work of God. A person cannot manufacture the desire for God contrary to what anyone might claim.Am I saying absence of urge for God means He doesn't want you ? Yes I am IF you truly have no urge and only each individual person knows the truth about this."Well I thought God loves everybody " You thought wrong, the scripture says the capacity is there but He does not love everyone."Well I thought God's love is unconditional" Kind of, it really has one condition : That a person respond to it in a predetermined amount of time known only to God."What is the method by which God will reveal Himself to any given person ?" Any given person must come to God on His terms and THEN He promises to reveal Himself."What are His terms ?" Seize the Person of His Son by a continual act of faith in a promise that fits your circumstance of need. When this condition/term is genuinely met God promises to reveal himself special to you.Source of Information: the Bible

You are almost correct, if you omit the last "....because you believe" in your reply quote then I agree with this statement. This then (if true) does not make what I said a circular argument.IF the Bible teaches that ANY degree of urge for God can only initially originate from God (which is my claim) it is a linear continuim, a one way street. The street becomes two-way when response is activated.Your error is refusal to accept this doctrine because of a subconscious absolute that believes God MUST extend this urge to everyone.In theological reality He does but the length of this extension to any given person is not equal. Some people get more time than others to respond.It's not WWJD but WWJHmeTD

There seems to be a large misunderstanding that I would like to rectify.You are not acknowledging the first part of my argument. This is the part about WHERE the urge (I didn't say belief) originates from. The urge, the inducement to want to believe initially comes from God. If this urge to believe is acted upon accordingly THEN one is eligible to receive the promise of God revealing Himself special to you.It starts with God, who in some way transmits to them that He wants them to want Him , to do something. Then as this transmission developes it becomes clear that what He wants is for them to trust Him by faith. When a person reaches this point and does what God wants it is inevitable that God will grant them what they are believing Him for. God is establishing the mode by which to relate to Him.A person cannot believe unless God FIRST implants the desire/urge to want Him, then when they discover (however that happens) what He wants them to do they then have A choice: Do what you believe He wants you to do or don't. What God wants is for a person who has the freedom to do otherwise to choose to trust Him by faith. Some people resist the urge to believe (for whatever reason) and remain in a state of conflict with God. The purpose of the Bible is to give a basis for faith/trust, which said basis is a record of God keeping His word.God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise recieved or conflict. How is this circular ? You obviously can disagree but do you understand what I am saying ?Next item : You cut and pasted a quote from my reply then you answered the quote by saying "I didn't say that"Yes you are correct, that is why in the quote I called it "subconscious". You didn't say it but I anticipated your ultimate point, which said point concluded that God must extend urge to everyone or He is evil.But NOW you have said it so it is conscious and again you are partially correct. You can say it makes God evil for creating some people atheist but I subjectively disagree. I believe theology teaches that God does extend urge to everyone but it is not "equal" to use the desciption from my last post. Degree and length of urge is the issue and with each person it is different.Conclusion: Atheism is a penalty from God for continually resisting Him. Atheists did have a chance - they chose the conflict and its ultimate penalty : God giving up on them. Howbeit a person COULD choose to conform to the mode that God requires to relate to Him. Faith is a choice that anyone can choose."I never had the urge or desire for God " The Bible says you did but the effects of sin has made you forget.

You are an intelligent person, yet now, you've chosen to intentionally mis-quote me.Your quote " You cannot see god until god gives you the "urge". But god won't give you the "urge" until you believe."This is not what I said and you know it.Now you can say I said this all you want but that still doesn't mean I said it.I said the urge originates from God, then the person recieving the urge somehow discovers that God wants faith....... I went through this in detail in post#56 but you have chosen to ignore everything I said.The only reason for you to stubbornly maintain this circular argument nonsense is because you have no argument to refute AND because as an atheist you believe that persons having relationship with God are basically crazy/irrational. This is the only belief in our exchange that is arrogant.You obviously are bailing out from this argument - too bad.

The continuance of selective quoting to prove your point is nonsense.You cannot prove or contend circular argument from what I wrote.This is what I wrote:God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise recieved/or conflict.How is this circular ?It is not.It only becomes circular when you add to it or misconstrue.

Mr.Thor :This is a very good question.The answer is theological.You must also remember that God can neither be proven or disproven.The Bible teaches that it is the nature of a Person to want to reveal Himself. Contrary to the beliefs of ancient Jewry who subjectively decided the opposite when they refused to even write His name when making copies of Holy Writ. God's Hebrew name of JEHOVAH (via the German) is pictoral, it means "wanting to burst forth".God is OTHER than me.And this OTHER wants to reveal Himself to others. He does so by originating a desire for Him and placing it into others. NOBODY can self-manufacture any urge for God, to have urge for God means that God has "activated your receiver".At some point this urge is develpoed by God to make you understand that He wants you to commense an activity called faith. When a person finally embraces God this way and genuinely trusts Him by faith - God promises to react to this "obedience" and reveal Himself special to you. When God reveals Himself special to you THEN you will know for sure that the initial urge from God was indeed from God. And you also receive what you were acting in faith for. God is establishing the mode by which we/I/you can relate to Him : Faith.Some people reject this and demand that God jump through their hoops before they even consider doing what He wants.God is much like any earthly boss in this life - they being the boss want everything on their terms (they are the boss it is their way or the highway) God is exactly the same : It is His way (His terms of condition before He promises to reveal Himself) or the highway (to hell).Basic atheistic ideology want the argument to be circular so they can claim that the believer is originating the urge and thus no Other exists.Thank you for your question which gave me an opportunity to explain this basic theology.

Everything you concluded using what I said was taken out of context to support YOUR assertions.Everything I wrote I reduced into this "equation" :God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise received/or conflict.Every quote that you cut and pasted was selectively lifted to slightly twist the meaning INTO the point you are claiming.There is no circular argument in the above "equation".For the sake of argument I withdraw everything I wrote prior and now I stand on this "equation" to best reflect my view/claim :God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise received/or conflict.Tell me, BY THIS EQUATION, how is it circular ?

Both of us now know you have completely dodged my last post.However, in case I might be mistaken could you tell me what makes the following "equation" circular :God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise received/or conflict.I am now saying that you misunderstood what I wrote prior, what I wrote before was meant to say what the "equation" is saying.
I apologize for my previous posts which did not really represent what I wanted to say.

Ned you are in error because you DECLARE my opponent to have already established my contention to be circular. Tell me, how is the following equation circular:God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise received/or conflict.The above equation is the reduction of my written argument. It is my opponent that has not the basic integrity to refute what I am claiming, instead he deliberately tells me that I said something else while completely ignoring the above equation. What I wrote reflects the equation accurately but he sticks to slightly changing what I said which then makes what I wrote to reflect what he is saying . Now you understand exactly what I am saying, with this now said, tell me , how is the above equation circular ?

I never said what you are concluding, and your conclusions are based on selective quoting while at the same time slightly twisting what I said.Faith is derived from the urge which God initiates. Nobody can self-manufacture urge for God, if you have ANY urge for God then this urge originates from God. Eventually this urge is developed by God to make a person understand that He wants them to commense an activity called faith. IF person does this it will inevitably result in promise received which in this context means that God will reveal Himself special to you in some incontrovertible way as to make it known to you that the initial urge and everything subsequent did indeed originate from Him.Once again, I submit the above explanation into this equation :God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise received/or conflict.Atheistic worldview and your particular brand will always insist circular argument because the above equation assumes that God does not dispense urge/desire to EVERYONE. You subconsciously believe that IF God were to exist then this URGE MUST be extended to everyone.
This subconscious belief is subjective based upon some standard internal assumption that God would be fair in His dispensation of urge for Him.Your insistence that my argument is circular despite everything I said (including the withdrawal of my argument) proves you are a closed minded dogmatic atheist fundementalist.You parrot circular argument because this makes everyone who believes in God to be creating Him out of their own fancy, and you justify this arrogance by a subjective belief that God would of extended the urge to you. In your view, this failure, would make God evil - what is the source of this belief concerning God ? Be careful and make sure your response doesn't resemble a circle, and try to also cite an outside criteria for your beliefs of how God must be.I am finished - you can have the last word if you want.

The urge that God supplies is the urge to want to have a right relationship with Him. God in some way gets it through to us that He wants us to trust Him by faith. The purpose of this work of God is to show us that we are lost. To answer your question directly - it is both. The urge is meant to signal us that He wants us to seek Him by faith.The urge is not meant to have faith in faith if this is what the second part of your question is getting at.God knows and understands the "risk" of faith, what He really wants to start establishing is that He can be trusted to keep His word.Remember it was doubting Thomas that insisted that he would not believe unless he saw, Jesus did submit to his test and Thomas believed. Jesus then responded by saying blessed are those who believe without seeing. That blessing is the promise to those who come to God on His terms, now, if, Thomas got the blessing that he got then what do you suppose the blessing will be for those who "first believe" ?What do you think Asgara ?

No God has not fully revealed Himself in the desire to know Him, He has only begun to unveil Himself.Let me ask you, how is the following "equation" circular :God - urge/desire - person - trust/faith - promise received/or conflict.The above equation is the reduction of my wriiten contention.If you disagree then so be it, but no one can claim that I am contending circular argument from the equation offered.

I've just read the last exchange between you and Grace2U.Even though what I am going to say you will not agree with I will say it anyway supposing an undecided 3rd party is observing.All those Romans Chapter 1 verses that Grace2U cites can all be interpreted to mean the following :IF anyone does not embrace the power of the gospel contained in the 17th verse, the wrath of the 18th verse is theirs.In the context of this wrath persons suffering thereof exhibit certain qualities that can be recognized.These "qualities" are listed in the chapter - a list of sins that are committed by persons who are in the grip of His wrath. This is the only context for this list. Mistakenly, traditional protestant teaching has used this list as a warning, that if you commit such things God will assign you to His wrath. Negative, not true, the list exists in the context of persons ALREADY suffering His wrath.What's my point ?Reject God ? (for whatever reason) He will reject you by darkening your mind, which incapacitates ones ability to recognize Him.
Violators simply do not care about God or what He thinks of them.God responds to dis-faith by empowering non-faith, resist His urge and eventually He withdraws it. This is the unpardonable sin state of mind : "God sense" removed.Conclusion:Atheism is a penalty from God for continually resisting Him. Your minds are wired/disconnected to not believe as a penalty for not wanting a Boss.Source of Theology Information : Dr.Gene Scott (Ph.D. Stanford University)

The purpose of my source acknowledgement is to prevent anyone from accusing me of plagarism.You can continue to slightly twist what I say, I cannot stop you.Every time you do, what I say becomes what you want to be true.Why can't you say what you want said in your own words ?Because you are playing a game that refuses to ever say anything that originates from yourself.The only thing circular is your pattern of thinking. The circle of your brain does not allow any breach that might contradict anything that you've already said."....God does not exist because that is irrational...and anyone who says He exists is irrational...because God does not exist...and anyone who says contrary is crazy....because God does not exist..."Over and over this is your one dimensional circular thought pattern.Your arrogance is so absolute that you have chosen to tell other people that what they believe is something they created in the first place.The God of the Bible says that He did not choose everyone. Those who He chose He placed a receiver in - an ability to respond to Him when He transmits.You can philosophize away this truth but this denial does not make this truth dematerialize.God starts the contact by manufacturing an urge into persons to want Him. That is vertical one way directional.If you resist that urge long enough He will withdraw it eventually, then the resister will end up in a state never caring what God thinks of them.Response to the urge usually has the respondee commensing an act of faith.When God feels this act of faith is genuine, THEN He promises to respond by revealing Himself special to you. When this occurrs, THEN you will know that the original urge was indeed from Him. Then you will know that you are not crazy.Say what you want, twist it anyway you want, but if atheism is a penalty from God for continually resisting Him (and it is) then this truth perfectly explains your circular thought pattern.

Thank you for your support.Realistically, atheists would never submit to this type of test.Besides, God cannot be fooled by some test. He is not on trial - we are.The brightest theologians agree, atheism is the result of persons who do not want a Boss.God will not force Himself on anyone. The Bible has an endless amount of text supporting the reaction of God when He is resisted/rejected : He gives jackass a shove in their anti-boss direction.Pharoah demonstrates this truth in action when the scripture says that God hardened his heart in response to him defying God one too many tmes.If this truth is true then arguing with atheists about God is absolutely futile.