Existence of God

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, it is not the christian calling you a sinner, because he too is sinful.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yeah, right.In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. There are many people that have made and shall continue to make mistakes in these matters. Why do you insist on focusing on the mistakes rather than on the truth?quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My only duty is to tell you that God says you are a sinner. That is the whole point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sorry, mike, but this is kind of amusing.The problem you have is, depending upon which Christian you talk to, or one's own personal interpretation of the Bible, a person may or not be a sinner with regards to certain attitudes or behaviors or what have you. There are countless "personal interpretations" that are very wrong. Again, why do you insist on focusing on those? I'll propose an answer to that : by focusing on the negatives, you consider yourself justified in your decision to reject Jesus Christ.Were the Christians who killed "infidels" during the Crusades doing God's work? They certainly thought so. That is a personal, one-on-one matter between each person and God. Some of them may have been 'doing God's work'. Some of them may have been pursuing personal objectives for wealth or power. Some of them may have felt compelled to obey the king. Some of them may have been looking for adventure. Etc...

​

There are umpteen possible reasons yet you wish to encapsulate them all into one "wrong" category. Why?Were the Christians who pointed to the parts of the bible which explain the worth and treatment of slaves in order to justify the owning of slaves not simply following the bible selectively? 'Christian' means a 'follower of Christ'. If a man wishes to unjustly exploit another human being then that man is not following Christ but rather his own goals.

​

OTOH, we are all 'slaves' - the only question is, what/who are we slaves of? Under the proper conditions, a form of 'slavery' is acceptable to God. Of course, mankind has perverted those conditions into what we commonly know as 'slavery' - an abomination to God. I sincerely doubt you'll understand this.Are the Christians who own lots of material goods and persue power and riches interpreting the bible rather opposite to Jesus' directives? Based on what I've posted here so far, what do you think the answer is?

​

If you insist on focusing on the negatives then that is exactly what you'll find. You need to ask yourself why you wish to do that. I propose : 'self-justification'.

​

Joralex

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonetheless, it is not the fundamentalist but God Himself that tells us that we are either saved unto eternal life (and through Jesus Christ) OR we are condemned to eternal death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Funny, I can find dozens of Christian denominations which do not hold this view to be true. Please, don't be naive. As you, I can find "Christian" denominations that also believe that same-sex marriages are okay or that abortion is okay or that Christ was not born of a virgin or that Christ did not resurrect in body as well as in Spirit or many other anti-Scriptural things. You need to get your facts straight.Why should I believe you and not them? Simple - because we can give a consistent, Scripturally-supported account whereas people such as, say, the Mormons or the Jehova's Witnesses cannot do so.

​

If you really want to know more you may email me.

​

Joralex

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think for a second, will you... do you HONESTLY believe that if the Bible did, in fact, have "many contradictions" that countless millions of people throughout history - including some of our smartest people ever such as Isaac Newton - would have remained believers in the Bible until they died? Would that make any sense?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes, of course I HONESTLY believe this. Of course, it is your prerogative to believe whatever you want. You may also be wrong, if that is your wish.The thing that you forget is that fundamentalist, Biblical literalist, YEC Protestant Christians are a very small minority among all Christians, and an even more miniscule minority among all religious people. I never forget it and if I should ever forget I always have people like you reminding me of the fact.

​

Yet YOU seem to forget these matters are not a numbers game. If 25 of the most prominent Nobel Prize winners came to my house and told me that God didn't exist, how much worth do you think I'd place on their opinion? Let me give you a hint : it wouldn't be enough to buy a stale doughnut.There are many, many more Christians who use the Bible as a poetic spiritual guide Yup... right you are. So, does that mean they're correct in so doing?
Why do you choose to believe that these people are 'okay' and yet I'm not?rather than as a literal history or science book, as you seem to. Nope... wrong you are. The Bible was never meant to be a history or science Book. There is some history and science, but it's role is definitely not priority one. OTOH, there is enough there so as to validate the Bible's authenticity.Here are some very interesting statistics regarding the stance on inerrancy of the bible of a number of the major Christian sects/denominations in the US.http://www.cesame-nm.org/...ontributions/bible/position.htmlOf those denominations surveyed, membership in churches not demanding a belief in inerrancy outnumbers membership in those that do by more than 2:1. Membership in churches professing belief in inerrancy is 15% of total U.S. population. The actual number of members accepting this belief is expected to be lower, because there are typically more church members who tend to accept a less rigid stance, than those professing a more rigid posture than their church's official position. So, you are going to risk the destiny of YOUR eternal soul on some 'statistics', is that about the size of it?

​

I hope you won't mind if I base MY eternal destiny on something quite a bit more substantial than this, thank you.

​

Joralex

That's a hoot! How about basing it on something more substantial than some imaginary father figure that resides in the sky! All religion is mythology with only the belief of it's followers to give it power. Why don't you believe in Apollo or Zeus or any one of thousands of other religions, some with afterlives some with none?[This message has been edited by kjsimons, 10-17-2003]

quote:

---

So, you are going to risk the destiny of YOUR eternal soul on some 'statistics', is that about the size of it?

​

I hope you won't mind if I base MY eternal destiny on something quite a bit more substantial than this, thank you.

---

You see, unlike you, I base my view of what is real in the world on evidence, rather than what I would like to be true. Crazy, isn't it?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

What?!!! Basing your views on EVIDENCE!!! What will the neighbors think!!! : )It always amazes me that reasonable behaving people who appear to be very intelligent, actually believe without any evidence that god(s) exist and that they have a relationship with said god(s). Kind of reminds me of Harvey the rabbit.

Is that what you were basing it on when you made this appeal to numbers:

quote:

---

Think for a second, will you... do you HONESTLY believe that if the Bible did, in fact, have "many contradictions" that countless millions of people throughout history - including some of our smartest people ever such as Isaac Newton - would have remained believers in the Bible until they died? Would that make any sense?

---

Kind of disingenuous to make an appeal to numbers and then criticize somebody else for countering with the same, don't you think?Honestly Joralex it's like you forget what you've said each time you make a new post.

------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're going to base your decision on a logical, scientific basis then DO SO! You cannot selctively employ logic and evidence to arrive at the conclusion that you desire. This is intellectually dishonest and you are fooling no one but yourself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"The verdict you pass upon others will be the one passed against you." Matthew 7:2 Speaking of which...

​

... there are few things more despicable than a non-believer selectively quoting Scripture in order to support his/her position.

​

Excuse me while I puke.

​

Joralex

What is the evidence you refer to? I have long held the view that if a person must ask this question then that person is too far gone for me to help.I only ask because to this point I've only seen assertions from you, no evidence, and I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps we're using different definitions of evidence. Over the years I've become convinced that most Naturalists haven't given the subject of 'evidence' more than a passing thought.Do you think saying something like "The evidence for a divine creator is all around us" constitutes evidence? Absolutely not. It is the actual evidence that is all around us that supports the existence of a purposeful Creator - not the mere act of saying so.

​

Joralex

The concept 'god' comes from one of two things (IMO).
Either:i) Contact between some 'primitive' or 'unsophisticated' society
and a 'sophisticated' or 'technologically advanced' one. Technology
sufficeintly advanced is indistinguishable from magic. You are here making an assumption that you cannot empirically prove in any way (i.e., the assumption is metaphysical in nature).ii) Failure to comprehend an explanation for something.Theoretically a god is a possibility -- but I see no evidence for
one. Many of the things previously attributed to god(s) are
now understood.This trend of discovery has gone on for centuries, and I see
no end to it -- and consequently no need to resort to god(s). So, you are using the highly fallacious argument that our being able to understand/explain things eliminates the existence of God.

​

Lessee... when I was born I didn't even know what the concept of a number was, let alone how to use them. Today I "understand" enough about numbers that I can do all sorts of things with them. So, does that understanding eliminate the existence of all those that created the mathematical system that we have today?

​

Understanding something doesn't do squat towards eliminating the Creator of that something. Besides, who do you think gave you the mind/intellect that enables you to learn?

​

There's more but no need to go on for now.

​

Joralex

"You see, unlike you, I base my view of what is real in the world on evidence, rather than what I would like to be true. Crazy, isn't it?" Allow me to modify your statement so as to reflect what I believe is really going on with people such as yourself, Rei :"You see, I base my view of what I believe is real in the world on selective evidence, thereby creating what I would like to be true. Crazy, isn't it?" Yes, it is crazy!

​

Joralex

That's a hoot! How about basing it on something more substantial than some imaginary father figure that resides in the sky! "Imaginary"? Says who? You? And why should we take YOUR opinion on this matter as 'gospel'? And if I were to listen to you, and you are wrong, could you compensate me for my eternal soul?All religion is mythology with only the belief of it's followers to give it power. Opinion noted.Why don't you believe in Apollo or Zeus or any one of thousands of other religions, some with afterlives some with none? Easy - because Apollo, Zeus or any other 'god' or 'religion' is, upon careful examination, found to be completely bankrupt. Only the God of the Christian Bible is able to withstand all tests put to it.

​

Joralex

I like it, I like it!!!

Evidence please! Oh, nevermind this is just YOUR totally unsubstantiated narrow minded bogus opinion.