Existence of God

Gods do not have to be logically or probably possible. All that matters is that people believe in them; if they do then that is good enough for them.Your post suggests that you wonder how people can believe in the Christian god. Is this the case?The Rock Hound

I don't think Psyiko was condemned here Brad. Perhaps s/he is referring to the general attitude of fundamentalists.I would agree though, that it is a bit hypocritical to demand that 'sinners' repent and come back to god or whatever, while ignoring the large gaping holes in the book that their vaunted religion is based on.The Rock Hound

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Fortunately for us, He is merciful and has given us the way to salvation - Jesus Christ. But then many people reject that path. Would you blame God for this? Many people do!

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Why do we need to be saved, Joralex? And how is Jesus the way? Explain this to me, in detail.I would say that people cannot blame anything on an entity that they don't believe exists in the first place. This looks like a general, unfounded assertation.I also don't think Psyiko is mis-representing Christians here, and you have not shown why you think otherwise. The Christian god has many contradictions, if the bible is to be believed (although I admit that my knowledge of the bible is limited, and others here could answer that question with more confidence).The Rock Hound

Ok, I think I get your drift, Brad. (I hope )It's inevitable that people are not going to like being called a sinner, and being told to repent and all that. I suppose the question here is why would some one choose a religion that openly insults them, when it is based on a book that is touted as the one true path (despite its less-than-factual nature), and there are so many other religions that simply emphasise spiritual well-being.The Rock Hound

Mike, the name's Rock Hound - not Rockafella

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However, it is not the christian calling you a sinner, because he too is sinful. My only duty is to tell you that God says you are a sinner. That is the whole point.

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Um, no - the Christian is calling me a sinner. I've been told that I'm going to burn in hell because I'm not a Christian - and I was told that by an arrogant, self-righteous fundamentalist too. Anyway, what the hell do I care about what the Christian god thinks of me? I don't think he exists. I'm far more concerned about my own religion.

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Then don't have religion. Have faith.

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So no one can have religion unless it's the Christian one? How arrogant is that?

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No one has called anyone a sinner. Except for God, who kind of has the right.

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Like I said - why should I care about the opinion of a god I don't believe in? Why does he have the right to judge me, when I am effectively not in his department as it were?

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But if you nevertheless dislike what he says, you can choose the easy path, no one will force your hand, so don't pretend they have.

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Mike, this is the greatest load of BS I've heard in a long time. Being an atheist, being something other than Christian in a mainly Christian country is the most difficult thing anyone can do. How do you think it feels, when you have to face up to the fact that everything you've been told since you were a kid is a lie? That there is nothing to take away your guilt if you do something wrong? That there is nothing to look forward to when you die? Could you possibly imagine how painful it is to have all your comfortable little illusions stripped away from you? And more importantly, that now you can NEVER regain your faith?!?Believing is easy, which is why so many people do it and religion is so popular. It takes strength to reject it all, and say there is nothing but this world and our time in it.I chose this way, and it was the hardest thing I have ever done. Don't tell me for one second that it's the easy way out, because it isn't - religion is the easy way; it's like a nice little safety blanket that stops people having to answer the really difficult questions about our existance that could drive them mad.The Rock Hound

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What I meant by easy path, is carrying on with sin because you enjoy the way you live 'with' it(not you personally, but generally). Why you think it's B.S I have no idea.

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Because it is BS - to me. I don't care about what Christians consider to be sin; I'll follow my own way and I resent being told that I'm a sinner by some one who really doesn't know what they're talking about.

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That's a big statement for a NON believer.

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I never said I was a non-believer. I was an atheist once, but I changed - though I'm not Christian and I don't want to discuss my beliefs.

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I fail to understand. I have never suffered illusions. All my beliefs have been confirmed. You are talking like I am a steryotypical religous person.You are even judging my situation like you know it - bizarre.

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I do know your situation - I was a Catholic, once. Having your beliefs confirmed, etc. - how are you not a stereotypical religious person?Perhaps I'm being to harsh here, but you obviously don't understand what happened to me. You may have kept your faith, but I had mine destroyed - and it hurt like hell. It's left me very bitter about Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, especially when some one says that I'll burn in hell for being a heretic or whatever. Also when some one tells me that "turning away from God is the easy way out". I hate it when people preach at me! You might think that it's your duty to tell people about the scriptures, but some of us on the recieving end just take it really badly...........................Ok, I'm sorry I over-reacted. I know you're not a fundie or anything. It's just that being a heretic in Ireland is no picnic.The Rock Hound

Thanks Mike.

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Because sin has separated us from God and without God only eternal death awaits.

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Merely your opinion.

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'Jesus is the way' - the only way - because God's plan (prepared before the foundation of the world) was to supply mankind with the only possible answer to our sin. Atoning for sin demands two things: a genuine heart-filled repentance and total restitution ("payment"). We are capable of the former but not of the latter since only a perfect restitution is acceptable to God. Hence Jesus Christ.

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But what if Mohammed is 'the way'? What about Krishna? Or any other religious figurehead?I asked those questions to illustrate a point - that whether or not we need to be saved, and whether or not Jesus is the way etc. means nothing to some one who is not a Christian. This is the same thing I said to Mike - why should I have to listen to some one tellling me that I'm going to hell when I'm not a member of their religion, don't believe in their god and am completely indifferent to their religious teachings?

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These are spiritual principles and, frankly, the unbeliever neither understands nor accepts them.

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As an unbeliever, I think I understand what you are trying to say perfectly. I was a Christian once, remember, so I understand your viewpoint.The Rock Hound[This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 10-15-2003]

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You ask for an answer and come back with "merely your opinion"? Uggghhhh...

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It's far more than "merely my opinion" - it's what God Himself has revealed to us in His Word. Of course, you already know this.

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Again, your opinion. You think that it is your god's word or whatever.

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These that you mention are, upon close examination, discovered to be bankrupt. How far have you studied other religions? You say you were once a Christian - didn't you learn enough of Jesus Christ to realize that no other "religious figurehead" even comes close to matching Jesus? I mean, we're not even in the same galaxy with your comparisons.

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Again, your opinion. Will you ever support it with more than assertation? And yes, I was raised a Christian and I learned just as much as anyone else. Guess what? After all that teaching, all that preaching, I concluded that the divinity of Jesus and the Christian god were myths. I made an informed decision.

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Boy, did you ever miss the big boat! It doesn't matter whether you believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Bible - They remain nonetheless. Does your arrogance extend to the point of thinking that just because you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ that He is simply going to go "Poof", and vanish in a puff of smoke?

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Of course not. I am simply indifferent to the religious beliefs of others - which means they are free to believe that the sky is pink, for all I care. And I am aware that a man called Jesus did probably exist at some point - but I do not believe that he was anything other than a mortal man who did extraordinary things (like Martin Luther King, for example). So no, I don't think that he is going to 'poof', as you put it.

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Here's a lesson that you obviously must've slept through as a Christian :
Belief is nothing if it isn't founded on Reality. You can believe in Santa Claus but that isn't going to make ol' Santa pop into existence. Likewise, you can choose to not believe in God but that doesn't make Him disappear.

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For you, obviously. He is your god, so he will not disappear for you. However he is not a part of my faith, so I am free to deny his existance if I wish. I never said I was an atheist now - I do believe, but I am not a Christian. I consider your god to be in the same bracket as the Greek or Roman gods - essentially myths.

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Again, belief must be founded on Reality, not on personal desire.

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And you have real evidence that Hell exists? I think not. So why should I take your word for it that it exists? If I was a Christian, maybe I would because it would be part of my faith. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

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Keep seeking and He will answer, all in due time.

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And turn away from my new faith? Certainly not for you, Joralex, and not for the bland preaching that you have been posting here.The Rock Hound

Aw, all that time I spent on my last post, and I get no response.Well, I think I'll bow out now. It doesn't look like I'm needed.The Rock Hound

Eh?Funny noises are indeed amusing, but I fail to see what it has to do with the existance of a divine being. Care to explain?The Rock Hound------------------
"They say there's a heaven for those who wait,
Some say it's better but I say it ain't,
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints,
The sinners have much more fun."