Existence of God

that's close enough- I acutally however had to "consult" THE BOOK in order to help me figure out how to "fall out" of love. I dont know if this is possible with other creature comfort "religions"?

Mike, the name's Rock Hound - not Rockafella

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However, it is not the christian calling you a sinner, because he too is sinful. My only duty is to tell you that God says you are a sinner. That is the whole point.

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Um, no - the Christian is calling me a sinner. I've been told that I'm going to burn in hell because I'm not a Christian - and I was told that by an arrogant, self-righteous fundamentalist too. Anyway, what the hell do I care about what the Christian god thinks of me? I don't think he exists. I'm far more concerned about my own religion.

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Then don't have religion. Have faith.

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So no one can have religion unless it's the Christian one? How arrogant is that?

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No one has called anyone a sinner. Except for God, who kind of has the right.

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Like I said - why should I care about the opinion of a god I don't believe in? Why does he have the right to judge me, when I am effectively not in his department as it were?

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But if you nevertheless dislike what he says, you can choose the easy path, no one will force your hand, so don't pretend they have.

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Mike, this is the greatest load of BS I've heard in a long time. Being an atheist, being something other than Christian in a mainly Christian country is the most difficult thing anyone can do. How do you think it feels, when you have to face up to the fact that everything you've been told since you were a kid is a lie? That there is nothing to take away your guilt if you do something wrong? That there is nothing to look forward to when you die? Could you possibly imagine how painful it is to have all your comfortable little illusions stripped away from you? And more importantly, that now you can NEVER regain your faith?!?Believing is easy, which is why so many people do it and religion is so popular. It takes strength to reject it all, and say there is nothing but this world and our time in it.I chose this way, and it was the hardest thing I have ever done. Don't tell me for one second that it's the easy way out, because it isn't - religion is the easy way; it's like a nice little safety blanket that stops people having to answer the really difficult questions about our existance that could drive them mad.The Rock Hound

'choose the easy path,'What I meant by easy path, is carrying on with sin because you enjoy the way you live 'with' it(not you personally, but generally). Why you think it's B.S I have no idea. I didn't even call you a sinner! or mention hell!'Believing is easy,'That's a big statement for a NON believer. I am the believer remember, and no it is not easy.'Could you possibly imagine how painful it is to have all your comfortable little illusions stripped away from you?'I fail to understand. I have never suffered illusions. All my beliefs have been confirmed. You are talking like I am a steryotypical religous person.You are even judging my situation like you know it - bizarre. Is this because I said Rockafella?[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-14-2003]

'Um, no - the Christian is calling me a sinner. I've been told that I'm going to burn in hell because I'm not a Christian - and I was told that by an arrogant, self-righteous fundamentalist too.'Then I would suggest not listening to fundamentalists. However I am christian, not religous, and God says everyone sins - in the Bible, check for yourself. The difference is , I have a responsibility to tell you the 'good news'. You simply could have ignored the fundamentalist - I would have, which prooves I can THINK afterall.
The fact is the Bible says ALL have sinned, including fundies. It's the simple job of the Christian to TELL you this. Have I mentioned hell? or judged you? - NO

Hmm... you haven't judged him, yes. But who judges? God? Jesus? Someone else?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 10-14-2003]

I just don't know why he got so upset. God judges, according to the scripture. My job is to tell people this. Fundies give me a bad name. Accusing people , and sying 'your going to hell' - no one has that right to judge. I would be a hypocrite if I accused you in this manner, as I am sinful TOO.

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What I meant by easy path, is carrying on with sin because you enjoy the way you live 'with' it(not you personally, but generally). Why you think it's B.S I have no idea.

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Because it is BS - to me. I don't care about what Christians consider to be sin; I'll follow my own way and I resent being told that I'm a sinner by some one who really doesn't know what they're talking about.

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That's a big statement for a NON believer.

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I never said I was a non-believer. I was an atheist once, but I changed - though I'm not Christian and I don't want to discuss my beliefs.

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I fail to understand. I have never suffered illusions. All my beliefs have been confirmed. You are talking like I am a steryotypical religous person.You are even judging my situation like you know it - bizarre.

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I do know your situation - I was a Catholic, once. Having your beliefs confirmed, etc. - how are you not a stereotypical religious person?Perhaps I'm being to harsh here, but you obviously don't understand what happened to me. You may have kept your faith, but I had mine destroyed - and it hurt like hell. It's left me very bitter about Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, especially when some one says that I'll burn in hell for being a heretic or whatever. Also when some one tells me that "turning away from God is the easy way out". I hate it when people preach at me! You might think that it's your duty to tell people about the scriptures, but some of us on the recieving end just take it really badly...........................Ok, I'm sorry I over-reacted. I know you're not a fundie or anything. It's just that being a heretic in Ireland is no picnic.The Rock Hound

I too am sorry for saying 'easy path'. But it hurts also when people speak ill of my faith.'I don't care about what Christians consider to be sin;'Absolutely fair. Neither do I and I'm Christian.'I don't want to discuss my beliefs.'That's fine. You wont find me attacking anyones beliefs.'Ok, I'm sorry I over-reacted. I know you're not a fundie or anything. It's just that being a heretic in Ireland is no picnic.'That's okay. By the way I am not catholic or protestant and I do not go to church. I know about Ireland , I have been there seven times - wonderful place, I had great journeys. Your personal journey is none of my business, I will not speak of sin anymore.

Why do we need to be saved, Joralex? Because sin has separated us from God and without God only eternal death awaits.And how is Jesus the way? Explain this to me, in detail. "In detail"? Get real - we'd be here for the next several years.

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Concisely, 'Jesus is the way' - the only way - because God's plan (prepared before the foundation of the world) was to supply mankind with the only possible answer to our sin. Atoning for sin demands two things: a genuine heart-filled repentance and total restitution ("payment"). We are capable of the former but not of the latter since only a perfect restitution is acceptable to God. Hence Jesus Christ.

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These are spiritual principles and, frankly, the unbeliever neither understands nor accepts them.I would say that people cannot blame anything on an entity that they don't believe exists in the first place. This looks like a general, unfounded assertation. You haven't seen/heard what I have. In my many years at this I've lost count of the times where unbelievers openly state that "they cannot believe in a God that would do such and such" - a perverted circular reasoning if ever there was one.

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But regarding your statement, logically you are correct - e.g., I don't believe in Santa Claus so I wouldn't blame Santa for any misfortune that came my way. However, you've missed the point. Refer to the first two posts by Psyiko and try again. I also don't think Psyiko is mis-representing Christians here, He has.and you have not shown why you think otherwise. I have - see my first post to Psyiko.The Christian god has many contradictions, SEEMING contradictions. With enough study they vanish.if the bible is to be believed Think for a second, will you... do you HONESTLY believe that if the Bible did, in fact, have "many contradictions" that countless millions of people throughout history - including some of our smartest people ever such as Isaac Newton - would have remained believers in the Bible until they died? Would that make any sense?(although I admit that my knowledge of the bible is limited, Thank you for your honesty here.and others here could answer that question with more confidence). Maybe "with more confidence" but they'd still be wrong.

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Joralex

Then I would suggest not listening to fundamentalists. Careful, Brother Mike - not all fundamentalists are alike, you know.

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Nonetheless, it is not the fundamentalist but God Himself that tells us that we are either saved unto eternal life (and through Jesus Christ) OR we are condemned to eternal death.

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Scripturally, there is no third option.

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Now, surely you are not disputing this, are you?

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My point : don't kill the messenger! We are commanded to spread the 'Good News' that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ but this doesn't mean that the consequences for rejecting this Gospel cannot also be divulged. Christ did it - shall not we also?

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BTW, this does NOT include judging people for only Christ is able to judge us.

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Joralex

'BTW, this does NOT include judging people for only Christ is able to judge us.'I thought this was a fundie. Okay maybe I should have said 'a fundamentalist who judges you.' - I am a bit confused when it comes to fundamentalists, I am not sure what they are.'Now, surely you are not disputing this, are you?'No, I whole heartidly agree with the scripture, and what you have said.'My point : don't kill the messenger! We are commanded to spread the 'Good News' that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ but this doesn't mean that the consequences for rejecting this Gospel cannot also be divulged. Christ did it - shall not we also?'Don't forget I am on your side. I only recommend not judging or accusing others of hell. However telling people what God says about it, is indeed our duty.

I too am sorry for saying 'easy path'. But it hurts also when people speak ill of my faith. You were right the first time, Mike - easy path! It is always the easiest path to follow what our own thoughts would have us do - whether this be following Christ, Buddha, Krishna, Santa Claus, ourselves, or whatever.

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The difficult path is always - for any of us - to follow something that is against our personal desires. Thus Christ repeatedly said to us that he that will follow Him must "die, be born again, and take up a cross".

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The "die" refers to giving up our former self - the worldly person. The "born again" refers to a new creature in Christ living not any longer for only himself but rather for the service of Christ. The "cross" refers to the incredible hardships that this entails - hardships that are unparalleled by anyone choosing to simply follow his own path.

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Social rejection such as the Rock Hound expresses is a piece of cake when one has the comfort of doing his/her own thing. How about being rejected AND having an internal war (the flesh versus the spirit) raging at all moments - a war that offers not a moment of peace? There is no comparison of hardships between the two - they are parsecs apart. Conclusion : rejecting Christ is the EASY way out.'I don't care about what Christians consider to be sin;'Absolutely fair. Neither do I and I'm Christian. Brrrrrrr...

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If it pleases God, I want to know about it and to learn more so as to do it.

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If it displeases God, I also want to know about it so as to NOT do it.

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Do we get to define Christianity in our own image? Is that how it works?'I don't want to discuss my beliefs.'That's fine. You wont find me attacking anyones beliefs. Glad you people agree - you may count me out of your happy agreement, of course.

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The point is not to "attack" anyone's beliefs - the point is to attempt to lead people to the CORRECT belief so that they may be saved. Of course, if a person believes that they "need no salvation" then so be it. Such people are definitely to be left alone - salvation cannot be forced on anyone, it must be deeply desired.

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Joralex

''I don't care about what Christians consider to be sin;'Absolutely fair. Neither do I and I'm Christian.'All I mean is, there are different opinions amongst Christians(discussed in my topic 'none of the above'). It is better to read what God ACTUALLY says rather than listen to differeng opinions. For e.g. a catholic is different to a christian because a catholic, does much repeating of prayers and 'confirmation' and other rituals- and also might say, 'if you dont go to church your going to hell' - whereas a Christian like me, who worships God in other ways, and does not say your going to hell, but simply refers to Jesus' words on the matter.

Also a fundamentalist' said to me it was wrong to read Harry Potter. Which I find ridiculous. Harry Potter is fictional, and a great book.How it is sinful to read such a fantastic fantasy tale is beyond me. This is why I call myself Christian, but not fundamentalist.

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Think for a second, will you... do you HONESTLY believe that if the Bible did, in fact, have "many contradictions" that countless millions of people throughout history - including some of our smartest people ever such as Isaac Newton - would have remained believers in the Bible until they died? Would that make any sense?

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I dunno. Were they also relying on logical fallacies?