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Author Topic:   The lies behind the Miller experiment
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1433 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 51 of 115 (156393)
11-05-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JESUS freak
11-02-2004 5:13 PM


Cyanide and Hydrogen Making Bacteria
JESUS freak writes:
However, Cyanide life-giving? Ya right. Let’s talk about these two elements for a second. First, Cyanide is not some instant life giver. No you can’t Just Add Lightning! to get life. Cyanide is actually the stuff that makes up suicide pills! Why use Cyanide?
Pure argument from incredulity with no attempt to study the question. A quick google on "cyanide bacteria" gives me:

Scientists Discover How Hydrogen-Making Bacteria Thrive with Cyanide (click)

A University of Arizona chemist and colleagues from Munich, Germany, have discovered how microbes avoid being poisoned by the cyanide and carbon monoxide compounds they make and incorporate into enzymes. The bacteria use the enzymes to turn water into hydrogen for energy.
Bacteria with this remarkable ability have long been widely dismissed as one of Mother Nature's interesting, if largely useless and unimportant, oddities, said UA chemistry professor Richard S. Glass.
But they now interest industry searching for cheap hydrogen sources for such things as hydrogen-fueled cars and other technologies ...
They've been around a long time, methinks (perhaps longer than a weasle ).
Note: not to confuse with cyanobacteria that are so named for their color (cyan, blue-green) not any chemical composition.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JESUS freak, posted 11-02-2004 5:13 PM JESUS freak has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by tsig, posted 11-06-2004 5:35 PM RAZD has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1433 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 63 of 115 (157234)
11-08-2004 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Yaro
11-05-2004 4:20 PM


Re: An explanation of evolution
also that the fate of any science does not rest on the results of one experiment, especially one 50 years old and back when knowledge of original conditions was less complete than it is today.
experiments are done to test theories, and when they fail only the specific theory being tested fails (and when they succeed then only the specific theory being tested is validated ... but not "proved" ...)
this just sends scientists back to look at the basics, review the data and develop new theories that also include the previous test results in the background data.
thus recent experiments show how the first membrane systems could have occured:
Nature - Not Found
It is an experiment you could do in a school chemistry lab. But it produces weird growths that, although made purely from inorganic materials, share some of the characteristics of living organisms.
Maselko and Strizhak mixed calcium chloride, sodium carbonate, copper chloride, sodium iodide, hydrogen peroxide and starch. They found a fungus-like, soft membrane grows out of the mixture, enclosing a hollow cavity up to 1 cm across. Chemicals diffuse through this membrane, react inside the cavity, and then diffuse out, creating swirling clouds of violet liquid in the green base solution.
Rather than reaching equilibrium, this process persists. The reactions, say the researchers, are reminiscent of the way living cells sustain themselves, driven from equilibrium by the flow of chemicals and energy across their membranes.
Maselko and Strizhak even saw a kind of replication in their chemical brew. Sometimes the cell structures grew into forms with several lobes, or sprouted buds that split off from the parent membrane.
But although they look impressive, can these structures tell us anything about the origin of true life-forms? It seems the answer might be yes, because the differences between the two processes are not as fundamental as one might assume.
Maselko is keen to follow up his discovery to see just how far the parallels with life run. "This is only the beginning," he says. "We will see many other systems like this. The next step will be to get these systems to evolve."
then there is:
http://web99.arc.nasa.gov/~astrochm/vesicle.html
... this new work shows that the early chemical steps believed to be important for the origin of life do not necessarily require an already formed planet to occur. Instead, they can readily be taken in the depths of space long before planet formation occurs. This implies that the vastness of space is filled with compounds which, if landing in a hospitable environment, can help jump-start the origin of life.
"Instead of finding a handful of molecules only slightly more complicated than the starting compounds, hundreds of new compounds are produced in every mixed ice we have studied," space scientist Scott Sandford said. He continued, "We are finding that the types of compounds produced in these ices are strikingly similar to many of those brought to Earth today by infalling meteorites and their smaller cousins, the interplanetary dust particles. ... Thus, much of the organic material found on the Earth in its earliest years probably had an interstellar heritage."
"A number of years ago I found that some of the extraterrestrial organic compounds brought to Earth in the Murchison meteorite could form membranous vesicles when they interacted with water," said team member Dave Deamer, Professor of Chemistry at the University of California at Santa Cruz. ... "When I learned of the ice experiments at NASA Ames, I went to the Astrochemistry Lab intending to find out what would happen when their complex organic mixtures were allowed to interact with water. To our surprise and delight we found that vesicular structures formed that looked very much like those we saw in the Murchison material."
"We now know that of the hundreds of new compounds we make in these interstellar ice simulation experiments, many have properties relevant to the origin of life," said biochemist Jason Dworkin. "Upon the addition of liquid water to the organics produced during ice irradiation, some of these new compounds, with no outside help, organize themselves into tiny vesicles with complicated structures. Other new compounds formed are so much more complex than what we started with that they glow when exposed to UV light. Not only that, but these molecules, which can convert energy from the ultraviolet light to the visible range, become part of the self-formed vesicles," continued Dworkin.
hmmm ... cell-like membranes concentrating chemicals where they can react together ...
a whole bunch of experiments if not a whole field of scientific inquiry inspired by one experiment 50 years ago ... I would call that a resounding success myself.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Yaro, posted 11-05-2004 4:20 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by JESUS freak, posted 11-10-2004 2:06 PM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1433 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 77 of 115 (158183)
11-10-2004 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by JESUS freak
11-10-2004 2:06 PM


Re: An explanation of evolution
JESUS freak writes:
the elements in your first experiment were not on earth when it was created.
Sorry, I didn't see a reference to a scientific report to back up that assertion ... did you happen to forget that detail?
Also I'll need to see your periodic chart for what elements were on earth when it first formed so that I can see what the differences are between that and today's periodic chart. I find this concept fascinating in it's depth and detail.
Finally, please review the last article
http://web99.arc.nasa.gov/~astrochm/vesicle.html
as it was discussing the raining down on earth of organic compounds already formed in space (think of them as micro-mini-meteors?) and that only needed to combine with water to form the cell-like membranes, so I need to know how their absence (or the elements to make them, confirmed or not per above) is any hindrance to the process?
Thank you for giving this such intellectual consideration.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by JESUS freak, posted 11-10-2004 2:06 PM JESUS freak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2004 9:47 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 90 by JESUS freak, posted 11-15-2004 1:57 PM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1433 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 80 of 115 (158212)
11-10-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by NosyNed
11-10-2004 9:47 PM


Re: Early atmosphere
this
Nature - Not Found
It is an experiment you could do in a school chemistry lab. But it produces weird growths that, although made purely from inorganic materials, share some of the characteristics of living organisms.
Maselko and Strizhak mixed calcium chloride, sodium carbonate, copper chloride, sodium iodide, hydrogen peroxide and starch. They found a fungus-like, soft membrane grows out of the mixture, enclosing a hollow cavity up to 1 cm across.
is not about the miller experiment, but based on rather simple compounds thought to exist on the early earth
and this
http://web99.arc.nasa.gov/~astrochm/vesicle.html
"A number of years ago I found that some of the extraterrestrial organic compounds brought to Earth in the Murchison meteorite could form membranous vesicles when they interacted with water," said team member Dave Deamer, Professor of Chemistry at the University of California at Santa Cruz. ... "When I learned of the ice experiments at NASA Ames, I went to the Astrochemistry Lab intending to find out what would happen when their complex organic mixtures were allowed to interact with water. To our surprise and delight we found that vesicular structures formed that looked very much like those we saw in the Murchison material."
is about those chemicals being common in space and present on meteors that would have impacted the earth in quantity in the early days.
they are NOT about the Miller experiment but are recent ones done based on the current thinking on the early atmosphere and near space conditions.
or am I missing something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2004 9:47 PM NosyNed has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1433 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 102 of 115 (159926)
11-15-2004 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by JESUS freak
11-15-2004 1:57 PM


Re: An explanation of evolution
JesusFreak writes:
Oh you didn't? How about reading message 65
Um. I did before I posted. Your message 65 says:
Two of the leading origin-of-life researchers in the 1970's, Klaus Dose and Sidney Fox, said that miller used the wrong gas mixture.
Now listen carefully while I type slowly for you ... your reply was to this message:
JesusFreak writes:
the elements in your first experiment were not on earth when it was created.
Sorry, I didn't see a reference to a scientific report to back up that assertion ... did you happen to forget that detail?
Now pay attention, because this is where you missed it the first and second time: I am not talking about the miller experiment, but others that have been done since then and are not based on it.
Get it? independent. This means that your sources are useless to refute them because they don't deal with them. The science has moved on and the experiments have moved with them.
Your apology is accepted, as I understand that many people are information challenged.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by JESUS freak, posted 11-15-2004 1:57 PM JESUS freak has not replied

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