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Author Topic:   Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 271 of 306 (497301)
02-03-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by 8upwidit2
02-03-2009 11:38 AM


Re: Extant Writings
they lack thinking skills. Jaywill

You're the one who seems to want everyone to notice your ass shaking around rather than your head.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by 8upwidit2, posted 02-03-2009 11:38 AM 8upwidit2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by 8upwidit2, posted 02-03-2009 9:26 PM jaywill has not yet responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 272 of 306 (497306)
02-03-2009 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by jaywill
02-03-2009 6:32 AM


Re: Extant writings
jaywill writes:

I already discussed one piece of evidence which leads me to believe that Matthew was the author. That was the difference in the listing of the twelve apostles in Matthew as opposed to the other gospels.

In Matthew his name is mentioned after Thomas as opposed to before. I already explained that this difference probably indicated the humility of the writer.


Or, perhaps the author thought that it would lend credibility to it actually being written by Matthew. Clearly, it worked.

Chances are that if the early Christian congregations had doubts that the book of Matthew was authored by Matthew the apostle they would not have recognizied it for inclusion in the New Testament canon.

Believing something to be true and it actually being true are different things altogether.

I don't believe that canonization was bestowed upon any books. They rather recognized the authority of books rather than assigned authority to them. That is in terms of inclusion in the canon.

And the evidence for this is?

The canon was not an authoritative list of books but rather a list of authoritative books. Apostolic authorship was one of the criteria for canonization. If they had known that Matthew was not the author of the book after his name they would not have included it in the New Testament canon.

Them not knowing he wasn't the author doesn't mean he IS the author.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 6:32 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:41 AM Huntard has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 273 of 306 (497307)
02-03-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jaywill
02-03-2009 11:10 AM


Re: Extant writings
Jaywill writes:

Luke's Gospel is not really altogether anonymous by any means (Luke 1:1-3 comp Acts 1:1).

John's Gospel seems to have the writer virtually identify himself (John 20:20,31; 21:20-25)

Mark's Gospel has a indication that he put his humble signature on it when it spoke somewhat arbitrarily of the young man who ran away naked. That is when the guards grabbed Jesus and they also laid hold of a youth who slipped out of his cloths and escaped into the night.

Matthew's indication is in the manner in which he listed the pairs of the original twelve disciples.

I think you are hung up on always looking for a reasonable doubt. I think your mode of operation is to always pursue the skeptical scholarship of destructive higher criticism.

i.e. "To whatever the Christian church has said, the opposite posed by the skeptics and unbelievers is the prefered belief."

This text is written by the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!

Upon days when thou findest eggs, doth not think they commeth from the chicken, or from other feathery creatures hopping or flying around. NAY! They art put there by the one that knows the way, me!

These were the words of the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!

Can you see what I did there Jaywill? Just because some text claims it was written by such and such, doesn't mean it actually IS.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 11:10 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 12:41 PM Huntard has responded
 Message 282 by 8upwidit2, posted 02-03-2009 9:30 PM Huntard has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 274 of 306 (497311)
02-03-2009 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Brian
02-03-2009 11:49 AM


So who named the Gospel and what was the date when it was named?
Are you having trouble finding this basic information Jay?

Yea man. Boy am I having trouble. I mean I have to go so far as to get up and walk across the room and look up some information on the Gospel of Matthew.

Who named it. I don't know.

Irenaeus (c. 130 - 202 AD) sited it as authentic, meaning he regarded Matthew as the author.

Source: a chart "The New Testament Canon During the First Four Centries" I believe by Norm Giesler.

Our record of Matthew having been cited as apostolic liturature between 70 - 130 AD

Furthermore no major church scholar sited it as a disputed book as far down as the council of Carthage in 419 AD.

Now you tell me when the book of Matthew was first considered in question as to authenticity please.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Brian, posted 02-03-2009 11:49 AM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Kapyong, posted 02-03-2009 3:49 PM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 275 of 306 (497313)
02-03-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Huntard
02-03-2009 12:13 PM


Re: Extant writings
This text is written by the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!

Upon days when thou findest eggs, doth not think they commeth from the chicken, or from other feathery creatures hopping or flying around. NAY! They art put there by the one that knows the way, me!

These were the words of the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!

Can you see what I did there Jaywill? Just because some text claims it was written by such and such, doesn't mean it actually IS.

Yea. And I bet just because your mom says she's your mom doesn't mean she actually is either.

Find me the date as best you can of the first recorded DOUBT that Matthew was not written by Matthew. I bet you can't go back more than a couple of hundred years.

But in the second century Irenaeus (c. 130 -202) listed it as authentic. And as far as the 5th century AD we see no church father naming it in a list of questionable apostolic books.

So most trusted Dr. Johnny Come Lately, when did New Testament scholars first begin to raise doubts?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 12:13 PM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 12:53 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 285 by Nighttrain, posted 02-04-2009 5:40 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 276 of 306 (497315)
02-03-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by jaywill
02-03-2009 12:41 PM


Re: Extant writings
Yea. And I bet just because your mom says she's your mom doesn't mean she actually is either.

If the only thing I have is her word, then no, I wouldn't just accept that. Fortunately for me (and her :P), she has a whole bunch of evidence to show me. And if all else fails, there's always a DNA test to see if she's telling the truth or not, but the evidence I have seen so far has convinced me she is in fact my mother. Should there ever come a time when I doubt that, I'm sure to get that DNA test.

Find me the date as best you can of the first recorded DOUBT that Matthew was not written by Matthew. I bet you can't go back more than a couple of hundred years.

And this is relevant how? Belief that something is true is not evidence that it's true.

But between first centurey Ireneus listed is as authentic.

Irenaeus was second century, LATE second century. Further he was a Christian, somehow I don't think he'd say the gospels were false.

And as far as the 5th century AD is see no church father naming it in a list of questionable apostolic books.

Of course the Church isn't going to claim that their own books are false, you can't build a religion that way.

So most trusted Dr. Johnny Come Lately, when did New Testament scholars first begin to raise doubts?

I'd say somewhere around the 18th century or so. Again, I fail to see how this is relevant. Either one has evidence that shows them to be authentic and true, or one does not. In the first case, no harm done, in the second, why claim them as true and authentic?


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 12:41 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:52 AM Huntard has not yet responded

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 277 of 306 (497340)
02-03-2009 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by jaywill
02-03-2009 12:24 PM


Gday,

Jaywill - you were challenged to provide some information :

So who named the Gospel and what was the date when it was named?
Are you having trouble finding this basic information Jay?

Jawill writes:

Boy am I having trouble. I mean I have to go so far as to get up and walk across the room and look up some information on the Gospel of Matthew.

Then
you crack a joke about how easy it is to find the information.
But then you FAIL AGAIN to provide the information !?
Is this some sort of a joke ?

Jawill writes:

Who named it. I don't know.

So your walk across the room failed utterly?
So you ARE still having trouble answering this basic question.
The first to explicitly name G.Matthew was Irenaeus.

Jawill writes:

Irenaeus (c. 130 - 202 AD) sited it as authentic, meaning he regarded Matthew as the author.

Why do apologists misleadingly give the BIRTH DATE? Irenaeus wrote in the 180s. The very first writer to name the four Gospels - a century and a half after the alleged events.

You note that Irenaeus cited G.Matthew, but cannot seem to admit he was the first to do so by name. Your walk across the room failed in that too.

Jawill writes:

Our record of Matthew having been cited as apostolic liturature between 70 - 130 AD

There is no such record.
No Christian writer refers to G.Matthew by name in this period at all.

80s - Colossians, 1 John, James - NO mention of G.Matthew
90s - Ephesians, 2 Thess., 1 Peter, 1 Clement, Revelation
100s, 110s - Didakhe, Jude, Barnabas
120s - 2,3 John, Apoc.Peter, Secret James, Preach.Peter, Quadratus
130s - 2 Peter, Pastorals, G.Peter, Hermas

There is NOT ONE cite of G.Matthew by any of these writers in the period 70-130 (No, Clement does not cite G.Matthew.)

(Papias does refer to a writing by Matthew, but in Hebrew, not called a Gospel.)

In sum -
the first to cite Matthew as writing our G.Matthew was Irenaeus in the 180s.
Until then it was ANONYMOUS.

Kapyong


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 12:24 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2009 4:02 PM Kapyong has responded
 Message 286 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:24 AM Kapyong has responded
 Message 287 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:27 AM Kapyong has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14750
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 278 of 306 (497343)
02-03-2009 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Kapyong
02-03-2009 3:49 PM


My understanding is that Irenaeus only agreed with Papias that Matthew had written in Aramaic (or Hebrew). He does not identify the author of the Gospel now called "Matthew" - which was most likely written in Greek and derived from Mark (itself second-hand).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Kapyong, posted 02-03-2009 3:49 PM Kapyong has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2009 4:51 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 280 by Kapyong, posted 02-03-2009 4:58 PM PaulK has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 279 of 306 (497353)
02-03-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by PaulK
02-03-2009 4:02 PM


quote:
Matthew, again, relates His generation as a man, saying, "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham; " and also, "The birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise."

That matches up with Matt 1:1 and Matt 1:18


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2009 4:02 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 280 of 306 (497355)
02-03-2009 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by PaulK
02-03-2009 4:02 PM


Gday Paul,

Well, here are the words of Irenaeus :

Matthew also published a gospel in writing among the Hebrews in their own language, while Peter & Paul were preaching the gospel and founding the church in Rome. But after their death, Mark, the disciple & interpreter of Peter, also transmitted to us in writing what Peter used to preach. And Luke, Paul's associate, also set down in a book the gospel that Paul used to preach. Later, John, the Lord's disciple --- the one who lay on his lap --- also set out the gospel while living at Ephesus in Asia Minor. (Against Heresies 3.1.1)

He also specifically refers to G.Matthew :

Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law.

And, he also makes many allusions and specific quotes of G.Matthew.

So in sum - Irenaeus :
* explicitly names 'Matthew' as writing a Gospel,
* explicitly uses the phrase "Gospel according to Matthew"
* frequently quotes and cites G.Matthew
* in his own writing.
But :
* he claims Matthew wrote in Hebrew (our modern G.Matthew was written in Greek.)

I would agree he doesn't actually identify Matthew as a specific person; but it's clear he knew the name Matthew and knew the Gospel of Matthew and that Matthew was the (claimed) author.

The weak point in my argument as Irenaeus being first would be Papias c.130 :
* he does name Matthew as doing writings
* but does not use the word "Gospel"
* but does not give any quotes
* we don't have his actual works (just Eusebius' words about him)

So Papias is not usually considered evidence for our G.Matthew, but Irenaeus is.

Kapyong


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2009 4:02 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2009 1:45 AM Kapyong has not yet responded

  
8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 2523 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 281 of 306 (497376)
02-03-2009 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jaywill
02-03-2009 11:54 AM


Re: Extant Writings
Jaywill wrote: "You're the one who seems to want everyone to notice your ass shaking around rather than your head."

Not sure what this means. Not sure I want to know, either. Not sure if I've been told off or asked out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 11:54 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 2523 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 282 of 306 (497377)
02-03-2009 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Huntard
02-03-2009 12:13 PM


Re: Extant writings
Huntard wrote: "This text is written by the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!"

Huntard, are you saying there is no Easter Bunny or that Jaywill has lost his marbles? This is some funnie stuff.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 12:13 PM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Huntard, posted 02-04-2009 1:55 AM 8upwidit2 has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14750
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 283 of 306 (497390)
02-04-2009 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Kapyong
02-03-2009 4:58 PM


The interesting point is that Irenaeus does not mention a Greek gospel of Matthew, but DOES know of the Greek document that we call "Matthew". So we cannot say that he attributed our "Matthew" to Matthew, and if anything, it is more likely that he attributed it to someone else entirely (or has no knowledge of its authorship).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Kapyong, posted 02-03-2009 4:58 PM Kapyong has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 284 of 306 (497393)
02-04-2009 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by 8upwidit2
02-03-2009 9:30 PM


Re: Extant writings
8upwidit2 writes:

Huntard writes:

This text is written by the Easter Bunny, follow my commands, as I know the way!


Huntard, are you saying there is no Easter Bunny or that Jaywill has lost his marbles? This is some funnie stuff.

I was trying to point out that a text claiming to be written by someone is not evidence that that someone actually wrote the text. And since I assumed we all know the Easter Bunny doesn't exist, I used him (her, it?) as an example. Glad you liked it.

Oh, and I noticed you don't use the quote boxes. Check out this link to see how that is done, or use the peek button on the bottom right of my post to see how I did it. This will improve the look of your posts, and advance easy reading. :)


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by 8upwidit2, posted 02-03-2009 9:30 PM 8upwidit2 has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2071 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 285 of 306 (497424)
02-04-2009 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by jaywill
02-03-2009 12:41 PM


Re: Extant writings
O.k., Jay, three questions for you.

1. Roughly what year did Paul die?

2. Was 'Luke' the author of Luke and Acts?

3. When were Luke and Acts written?

Make it four.

4. Was 'Luke' the companion of Paul AND the writer of Luke and Acts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 12:41 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
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